6 ms·

I would assume that is what happens with babies. Unless human development is that deterministic down to the cellular location level, I would imagine that rod/c

I would assume that is what happens with babies. Unless human development is that deterministic down to the cellular location level, I would imagine that rod/cone neurons are wired somewhat randomly and the brain spends months sorting out that neuron pathway #16384948 corresponds to the cone(x: 1340, y: 960, .leftEye) while pathway #16380021 corresponds to rod(x: 1280, y:720, .rightEye). But I have no clue so maybe I am completely wrong.

wizzwizz4 3y ago
> the brain spends months sorting out that neuron pathway Yup: but unfortunately, this is one of those things that seems to have a "critical period". (We know this because of experiments on poor defenceless kittens. Thanks, science! (But, I mean, it's decades later and it's got actual medical applications now, and we don't have to re-run the experiments because the results were all written down, so… maybe we should actually thank science for this one.))
- altruios 3y ago
  Until we need to figure out how to reintroduce that 'critical period' property at our will.
  - derefr 3y ago
    IIRC studies have observed ketamine doing this for at least the critical period of language-learning. I would guess that any AMPA antagonist (to tilt things in favor of bottom-up processing) would do the same.
    - altruios 3y ago
      Okay, you have me intrigued. Which studies? For rats or cats? Is this a 'cheat' to learn languages better, lol?
      - derefr 3y ago
        I do recall a study on language learning, but I can't seem to dredge it up. Here's one on visual memory in mice: https://www.lucid.news/could-ketamine-restore-child-like-brain-plasticity-and-learning/ https://www.lucid.news/could-ketamine-restore-child-like-bra... (links to https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(21)00689-6 https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(21)006...) In general, the relevant keywords for further investigation are "ketamine neuroplasticity"
subb 3y ago
The information travelling down the optic nerve is already processed heavily by the retina. At a minimum, you have compression by differentiation, i.e. a bunch of rods and cones are bundled together by comparing their signal. But I suppose your point is still possibly valid - just even more complex.
hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
What if there’s a software bug and you see blue as red and red as blue? How would you even know?
- ianlevesque 3y ago
  Plot twist: everyone's favorite color is the same, to them.
- rafaelmn 3y ago
  You know what things are what color so you'd notice instantly ?
  - hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
    If you call the sky blue and I call the sky blue, that doesn’t mean your interpretation of what is blue matches my interpretation of blue, it just means that we have both agreed linguistically that whatever colour we each see the sky as is blue. Colour is a construct of the mind based on how we perceive light frequencies, not a tangible thing we can touch.
    - rafaelmn 3y ago
      Nothing you said is unique to colour. Touch is a sensory interpretation as well - your interpretation of sandpaper is not the same as mine. There is no "red" other than what we've agreed on to be red - so there's no way to swap it with "blue".
      - hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
        My red could be your blue, and vice versa.
- robbiep 3y ago
  This is a deep philosophical question that gets to the heart of what it is to experience - when it comes to the brains perceptions around colour however we can be relatively confident that the wetwear processing results in the same result, assuming the same input capabilities. (Side note - I spent a lot of time arguing this with my medical school ophthalmologists and neurologists, which is why I have confidence in this particular result) This is because it isn’t a single photoreceptor picking up, say, 320nm light. Instead you have a range of essentially analog responses across the red, green and blue spectrums, that the brain reconstructs into true colour as we perceive it. Those with different receiving capabilities (on the one extreme: tetrachromia - those with 4 different colour sensors, who are exclusively women, because they’re on the C chromosome - and on the other end, those with cataracts - witness monet’s later life paintings) help to demonstrate the consistency with which the brain is able to achieve a similar qualia from the underlying stochastic impulses
patmorgan23 3y ago
It's definitely what happens initially, the question is whether you have the ability to rewire/relearn how to see latter in life.
- Teever 3y ago
  Probably. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainport

wizzwizz4 3y ago

> the brain spends months sorting out that neuron pathway Yup: but unfortunately, this is one of those things that seems to have a "critical period". (We know this because of experiments on poor defenceless kittens. Thanks, science! (But, I mean, it's decades later and it's got actual medical applications now, and we don't have to re-run the experiments because the results were all written down, so… maybe we should actually thank science for this one.))

altruios 3y ago
Until we need to figure out how to reintroduce that 'critical period' property at our will.
- derefr 3y ago
  IIRC studies have observed ketamine doing this for at least the critical period of language-learning. I would guess that any AMPA antagonist (to tilt things in favor of bottom-up processing) would do the same.
  - altruios 3y ago
    Okay, you have me intrigued. Which studies? For rats or cats? Is this a 'cheat' to learn languages better, lol?
    - derefr 3y ago
      I do recall a study on language learning, but I can't seem to dredge it up. Here's one on visual memory in mice: https://www.lucid.news/could-ketamine-restore-child-like-brain-plasticity-and-learning/ https://www.lucid.news/could-ketamine-restore-child-like-bra... (links to https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(21)00689-6 https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(21)006...) In general, the relevant keywords for further investigation are "ketamine neuroplasticity"

subb 3y ago

The information travelling down the optic nerve is already processed heavily by the retina. At a minimum, you have compression by differentiation, i.e. a bunch of rods and cones are bundled together by comparing their signal. But I suppose your point is still possibly valid - just even more complex.

hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago

What if there’s a software bug and you see blue as red and red as blue? How would you even know?

ianlevesque 3y ago
Plot twist: everyone's favorite color is the same, to them.
rafaelmn 3y ago
You know what things are what color so you'd notice instantly ?
- hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
  If you call the sky blue and I call the sky blue, that doesn’t mean your interpretation of what is blue matches my interpretation of blue, it just means that we have both agreed linguistically that whatever colour we each see the sky as is blue. Colour is a construct of the mind based on how we perceive light frequencies, not a tangible thing we can touch.
  - rafaelmn 3y ago
    Nothing you said is unique to colour. Touch is a sensory interpretation as well - your interpretation of sandpaper is not the same as mine. There is no "red" other than what we've agreed on to be red - so there's no way to swap it with "blue".
    - hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
      My red could be your blue, and vice versa.
robbiep 3y ago
This is a deep philosophical question that gets to the heart of what it is to experience - when it comes to the brains perceptions around colour however we can be relatively confident that the wetwear processing results in the same result, assuming the same input capabilities. (Side note - I spent a lot of time arguing this with my medical school ophthalmologists and neurologists, which is why I have confidence in this particular result) This is because it isn’t a single photoreceptor picking up, say, 320nm light. Instead you have a range of essentially analog responses across the red, green and blue spectrums, that the brain reconstructs into true colour as we perceive it. Those with different receiving capabilities (on the one extreme: tetrachromia - those with 4 different colour sensors, who are exclusively women, because they’re on the C chromosome - and on the other end, those with cataracts - witness monet’s later life paintings) help to demonstrate the consistency with which the brain is able to achieve a similar qualia from the underlying stochastic impulses

patmorgan23 3y ago

It's definitely what happens initially, the question is whether you have the ability to rewire/relearn how to see latter in life.

Teever 3y ago
Probably. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainport