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As someone with a degree in physics, who's mother is a math teacher and helped build a state level math curriculum, it's hard to convey how much I hate Common C

As someone with a degree in physics, who's mother is a math teacher and helped build a state level math curriculum, it's hard to convey how much I hate Common Core as a parent. My son mercifully avoided it entirely by being too far ahead and then hopping out of state during the worst of it. But my daughter took it with both barrels between the eyes. Teachers who don't get it blaming students who ask their parents who try to explain and get told, by everyone, they don't understand. Batshit crazy conceptual jumps (If you have 17 triangles and divide them into 3 equal groups, how many sides are in the remainder?). And then moving out of the California school districts, the new district didn't recognize those courses at all, so when she aced precalc and they didn't have enough kids to take calc, they had her take ... algebra 2. WTF? Then when she went to back to California for college, they made her take precalc AGAIN! Can you demolish someone's motivation any more? Fuck common core and the entire privileged shitshow of East Coast math professor elites that came up with this crap.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
entropi 3y ago
As someone who is from outside the US, and only occasionally exposed to common core via hatred on reddit, hn, etc., I would like to ask: what is the deal with it? I am kind of having trouble understanding what exactly it is. The examples I see about it are usually extremely simple to the point of having no information or testing ability, and others are just batshit insane like your example.
- gs17 3y ago
  The hatred is mostly from it forcing specific strategies for simple tasks. The intent is to help students gain better intuition for math and gain multiple problem solving tools. But you end up with children who didn't understand the lesson taking homework to their parents who know a "simpler" way not understanding what's being asked for and everyone getting frustrated. I fully understand, in school my issue was always getting marked down for not being able to show my work for mental math. A lot of the bad examples of it you'll see are just poor teaching (e.g. the "3 x 5 can't be 5 + 5 + 5, it's 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3" image), and we had that before Common Core. That guy's "batshit insane" example is just a slightly obtuse word problem.
  - entropi 3y ago
    Hmmm. Does it help, though? I mean is there any actual evidence that it works? I tend to be a bit sceptical when it comes to "innovations" in the education field, so I am also trying to be mindful of my own bias here, but so far I was not able to make sense of things that I have seen, or got a glimpse of any deeper intuition. And I went to grad school for applied maths. Maybe I am too old? Or maybe I already got the intuition they were trying to convey? Or maybe I was not exposed to this stuff enough to say? Could be any of these I guess. > just a slightly obtuse word problem Heh, I was imagining it was about overlapping arrangements that are divided equally or something. So is it really just asking for 6? In that case yes, its not really insane, just questionably worded.
    - Izkata 3y ago
      > Or maybe I already got the intuition they were trying to convey? If you pull out a calculator to multiply two 3-digit numbers and get back a 4-digit number, are you going to trust the calculator or are you going to go "wait a minute..." and double check you entered it right? If the latter, you probably already have the intuition it's supposed to teach. Edit: Or for something a bit more every-day: You're at a store and buy something that costs $6.24, pay with a $20, and get back $6.62. You may not know exactly what you were supposed to get back, but you do immediately know without having to do the math that it was definitely more than that.
    - secabeen 3y ago
      As a parent of a kid in a well-run Common Core program, yes. The goal appears to be to teach numeracy and concepts beyond just the rote application of formulaic solutions. When it's done well, you get students who can come at a problem from multiple directions, allowing progress even when they can't necessarily apply one solution correctly.
gs17 3y ago
>Teachers who don't get it blaming students who ask their parents who try to explain and get told, by everyone, they don't understand. I tutored kids learning Common Core math and this is exactly the problem. The teachers didn't seem to know the new material enough to teach it, the students weren't getting it, and what they were given to take home is often nonsensical out of context that wasn't attached to the assignment and very specific about what's considered correct. The parents didn't have time to figure out what's needed and learn how to do basic math in a new way. Everyone involved needs more resources and can't get them. They have a lot of interesting ideas on how to make math learning "intuitive" but forcing them on kids this way is unproductive. There were plenty of issues before, but at least my parents were able to attempt to help without needing to have been in the same classroom.
mb7733 3y ago
> Fuck common core and the entire privileged shitshow of East Coast math professor elites that came up with this crap. You think math professors set the elementary school math curriculum?
- lapetitejort 3y ago
  Yes, that is why Principia Mathematica [0] is taught in 1st grade. If you can't prove 1 + 1 = 2, then how can you progress? (joking, of course) [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica
  - monknomo 3y ago
    unironically, I think first graders might have an easier time with peano arithmetic than you'd expect, and would also probably find it more engaging than the usual numeric calculation curriculum
silenced_trope 3y ago
> Fuck common core and the entire privileged shitshow of East Coast math professor elites that came up with this crap. Education is fucked everywhere and the West Coast is no better. In San Francisco we got rid of algebra and it didn't help: - https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/san-francisco-insisted-on-algebra-in-9th-grade-did-it-improve-equity/2023/03 https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/san-francisco-insis... In Seattle the math is racist crowd has done some work: - https://www.newsweek.com/math-racist-crowd-runs-rampant-seattle-portland-opinion-1701491 https://www.newsweek.com/math-racist-crowd-runs-rampant-seat... And similarly in Oregon, can right answers be wrong, all to fix equity? - https://www.the74million.org/article/can-right-answers-be-wrong-latest-clash-over-white-supremacy-culture-unfolds-in-unlikely-arena-math-class/ https://www.the74million.org/article/can-right-answers-be-wr... :( I don't have a lot of hope for early education in this country.
- I_Am_Nous 3y ago
  Regarding math is racist, I read your linked article and it had a link[1] to an article discussing the mindset behind the classes ran by Shraddha Shirude. She talks about the way math class is taught normally: >They come into math class with a learned helplessness because of the way that math has been structured: teach how to do things, then hand them the thing, and they practice. It’s the I do, we do, you do — [a] very common strategy used in mathematics education, and it’s still taught today. Their point is I show them, I model it, I show them what being a good mathematician looks like, we do it all together, and then they try it on their own. And this linear thought doesn’t allow for creativity, but mathematics is an inherently creative content area. I can confirm I'm not a math person by standardized tests. I literally randomly guessed on the Math portion of the only ACT because that was better than me trying. If we inherited the normal math teaching method from European origins, it definitely failed me. I'm fascinated by math in many ways, but only because I sometimes glimpse its beauty - like watching a XYZ axis CNC drilling machine doing its thing, seeing XYZ coordinates going by on the program screen, and suddenly realizing what trigonometry is for, and what it's describing. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's racist by definition anymore than Astronomy is because we accept what an Italian said he observed in the sky. I suppose the "racist" portion would be assuming it's the only correct way, or the superior way to teach. 1. https://southseattleemerald.com/2020/07/21/ethnic-studies-educator-shraddha-shirude-on-giving-math-purpose/ https://southseattleemerald.com/2020/07/21/ethnic-studies-ed...
62951413 3y ago
Re: math professor elites "David Coleman is often described in the media as the architect of the Common Core ... earned a B.A. in philosophy .. a second B.A. in English literature .. a MPhil in classical philosophy .. he couldn't find a high school English teacher job .. he became a consultant at McKinsey"
- killjoywashere 3y ago
  > McKinsey Oh, fuck me. Fuck the McKinsey kids in particular.
mcphage 3y ago
> Batshit crazy conceptual jumps (If you have 17 triangles and divide them into 3 equal groups, how many sides are in the remainder?) Is this just something you made up on the spot? What you wrote seems clear, if something of an odd question. 17 triangles divides into 3 equal groups of 5 triangles, with 2 triangles as the remainder. 2 triangles have 6 sides. There don’t seem to be any conceptual jumps, batshit crazy or otherwise, but I don’t know if you were just going for word salad.
secabeen 3y ago
> And then moving out of the California school districts, the new district didn't recognize those courses at all, so when she aced precalc and they didn't have enough kids to take calc, they had her take ... algebra 2. WTF? Then when she went to back to California for college, they made her take precalc AGAIN! While these objections are totally legitimate and were terrible for your daughter to suffer through, they have little to do with Common Core other than it being an alternative math instruction method. Badly run districts not providing calc courses when a student is qualified and ready for them and colleges not accepting credits from other states is merely bad bureaucracy, uniquely impacted.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

entropi 3y ago

As someone who is from outside the US, and only occasionally exposed to common core via hatred on reddit, hn, etc., I would like to ask: what is the deal with it? I am kind of having trouble understanding what exactly it is. The examples I see about it are usually extremely simple to the point of having no information or testing ability, and others are just batshit insane like your example.

gs17 3y ago
The hatred is mostly from it forcing specific strategies for simple tasks. The intent is to help students gain better intuition for math and gain multiple problem solving tools. But you end up with children who didn't understand the lesson taking homework to their parents who know a "simpler" way not understanding what's being asked for and everyone getting frustrated. I fully understand, in school my issue was always getting marked down for not being able to show my work for mental math. A lot of the bad examples of it you'll see are just poor teaching (e.g. the "3 x 5 can't be 5 + 5 + 5, it's 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3" image), and we had that before Common Core. That guy's "batshit insane" example is just a slightly obtuse word problem.
- entropi 3y ago
  Hmmm. Does it help, though? I mean is there any actual evidence that it works? I tend to be a bit sceptical when it comes to "innovations" in the education field, so I am also trying to be mindful of my own bias here, but so far I was not able to make sense of things that I have seen, or got a glimpse of any deeper intuition. And I went to grad school for applied maths. Maybe I am too old? Or maybe I already got the intuition they were trying to convey? Or maybe I was not exposed to this stuff enough to say? Could be any of these I guess. > just a slightly obtuse word problem Heh, I was imagining it was about overlapping arrangements that are divided equally or something. So is it really just asking for 6? In that case yes, its not really insane, just questionably worded.
  - Izkata 3y ago
    > Or maybe I already got the intuition they were trying to convey? If you pull out a calculator to multiply two 3-digit numbers and get back a 4-digit number, are you going to trust the calculator or are you going to go "wait a minute..." and double check you entered it right? If the latter, you probably already have the intuition it's supposed to teach. Edit: Or for something a bit more every-day: You're at a store and buy something that costs $6.24, pay with a $20, and get back $6.62. You may not know exactly what you were supposed to get back, but you do immediately know without having to do the math that it was definitely more than that.
  - secabeen 3y ago
    As a parent of a kid in a well-run Common Core program, yes. The goal appears to be to teach numeracy and concepts beyond just the rote application of formulaic solutions. When it's done well, you get students who can come at a problem from multiple directions, allowing progress even when they can't necessarily apply one solution correctly.

gs17 3y ago

>Teachers who don't get it blaming students who ask their parents who try to explain and get told, by everyone, they don't understand. I tutored kids learning Common Core math and this is exactly the problem. The teachers didn't seem to know the new material enough to teach it, the students weren't getting it, and what they were given to take home is often nonsensical out of context that wasn't attached to the assignment and very specific about what's considered correct. The parents didn't have time to figure out what's needed and learn how to do basic math in a new way. Everyone involved needs more resources and can't get them. They have a lot of interesting ideas on how to make math learning "intuitive" but forcing them on kids this way is unproductive. There were plenty of issues before, but at least my parents were able to attempt to help without needing to have been in the same classroom.

mb7733 3y ago

> Fuck common core and the entire privileged shitshow of East Coast math professor elites that came up with this crap. You think math professors set the elementary school math curriculum?

lapetitejort 3y ago
Yes, that is why Principia Mathematica [0] is taught in 1st grade. If you can't prove 1 + 1 = 2, then how can you progress? (joking, of course) [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica
- monknomo 3y ago
  unironically, I think first graders might have an easier time with peano arithmetic than you'd expect, and would also probably find it more engaging than the usual numeric calculation curriculum

silenced_trope 3y ago

> Fuck common core and the entire privileged shitshow of East Coast math professor elites that came up with this crap. Education is fucked everywhere and the West Coast is no better. In San Francisco we got rid of algebra and it didn't help: - https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/san-francisco-insisted-on-algebra-in-9th-grade-did-it-improve-equity/2023/03 https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/san-francisco-insis... In Seattle the math is racist crowd has done some work: - https://www.newsweek.com/math-racist-crowd-runs-rampant-seattle-portland-opinion-1701491 https://www.newsweek.com/math-racist-crowd-runs-rampant-seat... And similarly in Oregon, can right answers be wrong, all to fix equity? - https://www.the74million.org/article/can-right-answers-be-wrong-latest-clash-over-white-supremacy-culture-unfolds-in-unlikely-arena-math-class/ https://www.the74million.org/article/can-right-answers-be-wr... :( I don't have a lot of hope for early education in this country.

I_Am_Nous 3y ago
Regarding math is racist, I read your linked article and it had a link[1] to an article discussing the mindset behind the classes ran by Shraddha Shirude. She talks about the way math class is taught normally: >They come into math class with a learned helplessness because of the way that math has been structured: teach how to do things, then hand them the thing, and they practice. It’s the I do, we do, you do — [a] very common strategy used in mathematics education, and it’s still taught today. Their point is I show them, I model it, I show them what being a good mathematician looks like, we do it all together, and then they try it on their own. And this linear thought doesn’t allow for creativity, but mathematics is an inherently creative content area. I can confirm I'm not a math person by standardized tests. I literally randomly guessed on the Math portion of the only ACT because that was better than me trying. If we inherited the normal math teaching method from European origins, it definitely failed me. I'm fascinated by math in many ways, but only because I sometimes glimpse its beauty - like watching a XYZ axis CNC drilling machine doing its thing, seeing XYZ coordinates going by on the program screen, and suddenly realizing what trigonometry is for, and what it's describing. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's racist by definition anymore than Astronomy is because we accept what an Italian said he observed in the sky. I suppose the "racist" portion would be assuming it's the only correct way, or the superior way to teach. 1. https://southseattleemerald.com/2020/07/21/ethnic-studies-educator-shraddha-shirude-on-giving-math-purpose/ https://southseattleemerald.com/2020/07/21/ethnic-studies-ed...

62951413 3y ago

Re: math professor elites "David Coleman is often described in the media as the architect of the Common Core ... earned a B.A. in philosophy .. a second B.A. in English literature .. a MPhil in classical philosophy .. he couldn't find a high school English teacher job .. he became a consultant at McKinsey"

killjoywashere 3y ago
> McKinsey Oh, fuck me. Fuck the McKinsey kids in particular.

mcphage 3y ago

> Batshit crazy conceptual jumps (If you have 17 triangles and divide them into 3 equal groups, how many sides are in the remainder?) Is this just something you made up on the spot? What you wrote seems clear, if something of an odd question. 17 triangles divides into 3 equal groups of 5 triangles, with 2 triangles as the remainder. 2 triangles have 6 sides. There don’t seem to be any conceptual jumps, batshit crazy or otherwise, but I don’t know if you were just going for word salad.

secabeen 3y ago

> And then moving out of the California school districts, the new district didn't recognize those courses at all, so when she aced precalc and they didn't have enough kids to take calc, they had her take ... algebra 2. WTF? Then when she went to back to California for college, they made her take precalc AGAIN! While these objections are totally legitimate and were terrible for your daughter to suffer through, they have little to do with Common Core other than it being an alternative math instruction method. Badly run districts not providing calc courses when a student is qualified and ready for them and colleges not accepting credits from other states is merely bad bureaucracy, uniquely impacted.