17 ms·

While I won't argue loot boxes, and I dont know enough about mod/skin communities... The 30% developer fee makes a lot more sense if you consider that steam is

by bisby 3y ago

While I won't argue loot boxes, and I dont know enough about mod/skin communities... The 30% developer fee makes a lot more sense if you consider that steam is much more than a game store. They host forums, guides, achievements, cloud saves, multiple versions of the game at once with beta channel access, screenshots, remote play, extras like Proton support, a friends list that will show you when other people are playing a game (advertising). And the store page has all sorts of stuff like ratings, reviews... a shopping cart and ability to purchase more than 1 game at a time (didn't know that was a feature, but apparently it is). And top of all that, it's just frankly where PC gamers are, so theres a ton of built in marketing. Not every game benefits from all these things. But it's hardly just a storefront. I would question Gamestop taking a 30% cut. I would question if EGS wanted the same 30% cut as valve gets. Gamers prefer Steam over EGS, and the reason they prefer it isn't just because "it's a nicer store front." It's a whole platform thing.

_cenw 3y ago
People Make Games did a great half-hour documentary on it. It's... pretty bad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMmNy11Mn7g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMmNy11Mn7g
Spivak 3y ago
> I would question Gamestop taking a 30% cut Why? Physical distribution is way more expensive and they handle the entire consumer lifecycle.
- bisby 3y ago
  Gamestop has a single interaction with the sales process. Once I've bought my game, unless I want to return it, I never have to think about gamestop again. So while the "get the game to the store" costs more, the act of swapping money in exchange for the game is basically 0 work. Gamestop has logistics to deal with as their primary service. Valve has a perpetual obligation. I might buy the game and then never even download it. Or I might download the game. delete it. download the game again next week. delete it ... etc... And take 1000 screenshots that I want them to host, and upload mods for a game that they have to host and people may download. And this may happen forever (or at least until Valve ceases to be a company). Fable III isn't even available in the Steam store anymore... but they have a repo hosting the game files. And they still take updates (the package was last updated in july 2023, even though its been off the store for years). According to SteamDB there are 14 people playing it right now. Steam has been supporting a game that they haven't even sold in the past 8 years. I'm willing to bet that if I ask gamestop for anything regarding support for a game from 8 years ago they'd just laugh at me. tl;dr - physical distribution has cut and dry limited obligations, but steam has to deal with stuff forever.
  - oceanplexian 3y ago
    That’s not a downside for Steam, and probably totally negates any distribution cost. Imagine if you had to go to Gamestop every time you launched a game. They would kill for that opportunity. Steam has a captive audience who goes to their store every day.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    >the act of swapping money in exchange for the game is basically 0 work. you're still treating this as a software service. Remember that for a physical store: 1. you need to maintain the store. you can't have dirt bugs and grime everywhere 2. you need insurance to deal with various inevitable factors. theft, crime within store grounds, destruction of property, etc. 3. buildings break down faster than servers. you need to upkeep that. 4. security. Need to monitor the store in and outside of business hours. 5. yes, support. They manage memberships, pre-orders, process returns in or out of warranty/return period, check inventory for if older used games are around, and can route you to other locations for such product. Its only cut and dry if you never think what is needed to maintain the norm for you.
justinclift 3y ago
> host forums Some of their discussion forums are incredibly toxic though, seeming to have no effective moderation. Baldurs Gate 3 and Starfield spring to mind as clear examples, though it wouldn't surprise me if there are even worse ones around.
- darkwater 3y ago
  Some example? I don't use Steam, nor play videogames nowadays but I played a lot the original Baldur's Gate back in the day, so I'm somehow curious about this (even simple pointers are appreciated)
  - justinclift 3y ago
    Personally, I insta-bought Baldurs Gate 3 when it launched due to having played Baldurs Gate 1 & 2 + the video's of it showing the graphics looking ok. It was a mistake. The Steam discussion/forums for it are here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/ https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/ I've not looked at them for ages as they were very toxic for a few weeks after launch, and I personally have no real desire to go looking again now. Maybe they've magically improved somehow, but I doubt it.
    - stavros 3y ago
      Why was it a mistake? I've only heard good things.
    - BEEdwards 3y ago
      >It was a mistake. What do you mean, the game is objectively solid and is very much a continuation of the Boulders Gate series. It has flaws, but personally I think it's the best crpg i've played in years (and without nostalgia filters).
      - dragonwriter 3y ago
        I'm guessing its probably related to the fact that BG1 and BG2 are T-rated, BG3 is both M-rated (in part for sex) and inclusive in a way that, well, more than one review or article suggested it might be something like “the queerest video game of all time”. To be clear, I'm not criticizing, I just am not surprised that a certain segment of the BG1/BG2 fanbase is unhappy.
tapoxi 3y ago
I mean the entire Unreal Engine 5 is a 5% cut, a 30% cut to host forums and screenshots is a little ridiculous.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  Promotion probably plays a bigger role in enabling profit than engine, though. Whether it should may be a different issue.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    Discovery is a major reason why so many people use Steam. That, and Steam hasn't really burned many folks, ever. They even pioneered returns after you played the game... As a user, I've never once been mad at Steam.
    - flkiwi 3y ago
      The only thing I get mad at Steam about is that the client updates (baseless accusation incoming) WAY too often and/or desperately needs to have some sort of incremental update system. I am, however, not a game developer. But as a consumer it's been very good.
    - hug 3y ago
      > They even pioneered returns after you played the game... They were forced to do so by the Australian government, so it was hardly "pioneering".
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        Feels very apple-esque when people spin up compliance to government regulations as "pioneering". Then Epic has the same spin every other company does and they are ground to dust in the internet discourse. But yeah, difference is Valve knows to be good to consumers (mostly) but make dev support a nightmare if you're not big enough.
    - madeofpalk 3y ago
highwaylights 3y ago
I thought it was just a very sticky library where people keep buying Steam games because all the games they already own are on Steam. Also, both Xbox and PlayStation have more-or-less all those things you mentioned but you get subsidised hardware in the deal too.
- crtasm 3y ago
  One major plus with Steam is buying a single copy of certain games and having a friend join instantly via remote play. Also nice to be able to buy some new games and run them on an old laptop, can't do that on my xbox 360 anymore. My library all runs on my latest computer too. At least xbox makes a fair amount of the catalog backwards compatible, it's not a thing on Playstation. edit: plus I can give friends access to my entire library, providing I'm not using it at the time.
  - OmegaMetor 3y ago
    Another fun thing about steam: There's no setting for the game developer to enable/disable the networking, so if a steam game uses steamworks and doesn't have multiplayer through steam, it can just be modded in and works great.
    - crtasm 3y ago
      Is this the best tool for that? https://github.com/m4dEngi/RemotePlayWhatever https://github.com/m4dEngi/RemotePlayWhatever
- ChoGGi 3y ago
  And monthly online fees? Or is that only PS?
  - highwaylights 3y ago
    This is fair, but it's an oddly mixed bag on Playstation for legacy reasons. Free-to-play games can be played online without a subscription, but paid games require a subscription - I imagine as a holdover from pre-Fortnite days and cross-platform play. I'm a subscriber for the game catalogue and only really play online multiplayers that are F2P anyway, but yeah it doesn't seem at all justifiable. It's a strange decision too - I can't imagine the subset of people who are NOT subscribers for the monthly games and/or catalogue AND are playing games online that are NOT f2p is big enough to be a significant impact to their bottom line. If anything it would be a deterrent from choosing the platform.
scarby2 3y ago
according to polygon gamestop's margin on new games was around 25%. So that's not massively different and steam absolutely provides more value for the developer than gamestop.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  I don't really get the GS comparisons. GS was from a different time where your options for distribution on console was selling in brick and mortar stores or barely selling at all. they 100% can't justify 25% in 2023 as digital purchases supercede physical, but that's not when these rates were negotiated upon.
madeofpalk 3y ago
Steam taking 30% cut is fine. No one is being forced to use Steam (unlike on iOS) If developers don’t like it, they can chose other options to distribute their game.
- jquery 3y ago
  Here is where I come in and recommend everyone check out Playnite: https://playnite.link/ https://playnite.link/ When I care about supporting a developer or publisher and they offer their product on their own storefront DRM-free, I will often go there to buy. Or I buy from GoG which takes a smaller cut. Playnite lets me launch my Steam and non-Steam games in a seamless fashion. Steam still does a great job as a game installer/patch manager, and helps me discover new games. But I'm not locked into paying them a 30% fee, which is pretty brutal for some smaller publishers.
  - mattl 3y ago
    Windows only?
    - jquery 3y ago
      It can run on Linux/Steam Deck apparently: https://www.reddit.com/r/playnite/comments/15q2x16/i_installed_playnite_on_linux_steam_deck/ https://www.reddit.com/r/playnite/comments/15q2x16/i_install... I have only used it on my Windows install, so I can't recommend this.
- hyperbovine 3y ago
  Who is being forced to use iOS?
  - beefsack 3y ago
    Not being forced to use iOS, but if you are on iOS you are forced to use the app store.
  - nkrisc 3y ago
huytersd 3y ago
A whole lot to say not much. It’s reviews and forums.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
>Not every game benefits from all these things. But it's hardly just a storefront. yeah, that's my issue. but it's all or nothing because the only thing that really matters is presence. So you just suck it up or use another store (or distribute independently). >Gamers prefer Steam over EGS, and the reason they prefer it isn't just because "it's a nicer store front." It's a whole platform thing. It's really just network effects at the end of the day. We've seen enough instances in other places in tech where the de facto is shit and even actively ruining its product, but people stay. Sad thing isn't how big it is, it's how hard it is to fail.
yrro 3y ago
Don't forget the network backbone for multiplayer game traffic. I'd love to see a "what has Steam ever done for us?" sketch produced :)
nsagent 3y ago
I'm honestly surprised no one has mentioned the Most Favored Nation clause, which helps enforce Steam's ability to charge 30%. https://www.pcgamer.com/lawsuit-claims-valve-is-abusing-its-market-dominance-to-keep-prices-high/ https://www.pcgamer.com/lawsuit-claims-valve-is-abusing-its-... https://www.masonllp.com/case/valve-mass-arbitration/ https://www.masonllp.com/case/valve-mass-arbitration/

by bisby 3y ago

_cenw 3y ago

People Make Games did a great half-hour documentary on it. It's... pretty bad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMmNy11Mn7g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMmNy11Mn7g

Spivak 3y ago

> I would question Gamestop taking a 30% cut Why? Physical distribution is way more expensive and they handle the entire consumer lifecycle.

bisby 3y ago
Gamestop has a single interaction with the sales process. Once I've bought my game, unless I want to return it, I never have to think about gamestop again. So while the "get the game to the store" costs more, the act of swapping money in exchange for the game is basically 0 work. Gamestop has logistics to deal with as their primary service. Valve has a perpetual obligation. I might buy the game and then never even download it. Or I might download the game. delete it. download the game again next week. delete it ... etc... And take 1000 screenshots that I want them to host, and upload mods for a game that they have to host and people may download. And this may happen forever (or at least until Valve ceases to be a company). Fable III isn't even available in the Steam store anymore... but they have a repo hosting the game files. And they still take updates (the package was last updated in july 2023, even though its been off the store for years). According to SteamDB there are 14 people playing it right now. Steam has been supporting a game that they haven't even sold in the past 8 years. I'm willing to bet that if I ask gamestop for anything regarding support for a game from 8 years ago they'd just laugh at me. tl;dr - physical distribution has cut and dry limited obligations, but steam has to deal with stuff forever.
- oceanplexian 3y ago
  That’s not a downside for Steam, and probably totally negates any distribution cost. Imagine if you had to go to Gamestop every time you launched a game. They would kill for that opportunity. Steam has a captive audience who goes to their store every day.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >the act of swapping money in exchange for the game is basically 0 work. you're still treating this as a software service. Remember that for a physical store: 1. you need to maintain the store. you can't have dirt bugs and grime everywhere 2. you need insurance to deal with various inevitable factors. theft, crime within store grounds, destruction of property, etc. 3. buildings break down faster than servers. you need to upkeep that. 4. security. Need to monitor the store in and outside of business hours. 5. yes, support. They manage memberships, pre-orders, process returns in or out of warranty/return period, check inventory for if older used games are around, and can route you to other locations for such product. Its only cut and dry if you never think what is needed to maintain the norm for you.

justinclift 3y ago

> host forums Some of their discussion forums are incredibly toxic though, seeming to have no effective moderation. Baldurs Gate 3 and Starfield spring to mind as clear examples, though it wouldn't surprise me if there are even worse ones around.

darkwater 3y ago
Some example? I don't use Steam, nor play videogames nowadays but I played a lot the original Baldur's Gate back in the day, so I'm somehow curious about this (even simple pointers are appreciated)
- justinclift 3y ago
  Personally, I insta-bought Baldurs Gate 3 when it launched due to having played Baldurs Gate 1 & 2 + the video's of it showing the graphics looking ok. It was a mistake. The Steam discussion/forums for it are here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/ https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/ I've not looked at them for ages as they were very toxic for a few weeks after launch, and I personally have no real desire to go looking again now. Maybe they've magically improved somehow, but I doubt it.
  - stavros 3y ago
    Why was it a mistake? I've only heard good things.
  - BEEdwards 3y ago
    >It was a mistake. What do you mean, the game is objectively solid and is very much a continuation of the Boulders Gate series. It has flaws, but personally I think it's the best crpg i've played in years (and without nostalgia filters).
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      I'm guessing its probably related to the fact that BG1 and BG2 are T-rated, BG3 is both M-rated (in part for sex) and inclusive in a way that, well, more than one review or article suggested it might be something like “the queerest video game of all time”. To be clear, I'm not criticizing, I just am not surprised that a certain segment of the BG1/BG2 fanbase is unhappy.

tapoxi 3y ago

I mean the entire Unreal Engine 5 is a 5% cut, a 30% cut to host forums and screenshots is a little ridiculous.

dragonwriter 3y ago
Promotion probably plays a bigger role in enabling profit than engine, though. Whether it should may be a different issue.
- Alupis 3y ago
  Discovery is a major reason why so many people use Steam. That, and Steam hasn't really burned many folks, ever. They even pioneered returns after you played the game... As a user, I've never once been mad at Steam.
  - flkiwi 3y ago
    The only thing I get mad at Steam about is that the client updates (baseless accusation incoming) WAY too often and/or desperately needs to have some sort of incremental update system. I am, however, not a game developer. But as a consumer it's been very good.
  - hug 3y ago
    > They even pioneered returns after you played the game... They were forced to do so by the Australian government, so it was hardly "pioneering".
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      Feels very apple-esque when people spin up compliance to government regulations as "pioneering". Then Epic has the same spin every other company does and they are ground to dust in the internet discourse. But yeah, difference is Valve knows to be good to consumers (mostly) but make dev support a nightmare if you're not big enough.
  - madeofpalk 3y ago

highwaylights 3y ago

I thought it was just a very sticky library where people keep buying Steam games because all the games they already own are on Steam. Also, both Xbox and PlayStation have more-or-less all those things you mentioned but you get subsidised hardware in the deal too.

crtasm 3y ago
One major plus with Steam is buying a single copy of certain games and having a friend join instantly via remote play. Also nice to be able to buy some new games and run them on an old laptop, can't do that on my xbox 360 anymore. My library all runs on my latest computer too. At least xbox makes a fair amount of the catalog backwards compatible, it's not a thing on Playstation. edit: plus I can give friends access to my entire library, providing I'm not using it at the time.
- OmegaMetor 3y ago
  Another fun thing about steam: There's no setting for the game developer to enable/disable the networking, so if a steam game uses steamworks and doesn't have multiplayer through steam, it can just be modded in and works great.
  - crtasm 3y ago
    Is this the best tool for that? https://github.com/m4dEngi/RemotePlayWhatever https://github.com/m4dEngi/RemotePlayWhatever
ChoGGi 3y ago
And monthly online fees? Or is that only PS?
- highwaylights 3y ago
  This is fair, but it's an oddly mixed bag on Playstation for legacy reasons. Free-to-play games can be played online without a subscription, but paid games require a subscription - I imagine as a holdover from pre-Fortnite days and cross-platform play. I'm a subscriber for the game catalogue and only really play online multiplayers that are F2P anyway, but yeah it doesn't seem at all justifiable. It's a strange decision too - I can't imagine the subset of people who are NOT subscribers for the monthly games and/or catalogue AND are playing games online that are NOT f2p is big enough to be a significant impact to their bottom line. If anything it would be a deterrent from choosing the platform.

scarby2 3y ago

according to polygon gamestop's margin on new games was around 25%. So that's not massively different and steam absolutely provides more value for the developer than gamestop.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
I don't really get the GS comparisons. GS was from a different time where your options for distribution on console was selling in brick and mortar stores or barely selling at all. they 100% can't justify 25% in 2023 as digital purchases supercede physical, but that's not when these rates were negotiated upon.

madeofpalk 3y ago

Steam taking 30% cut is fine. No one is being forced to use Steam (unlike on iOS) If developers don’t like it, they can chose other options to distribute their game.

jquery 3y ago
Here is where I come in and recommend everyone check out Playnite: https://playnite.link/ https://playnite.link/ When I care about supporting a developer or publisher and they offer their product on their own storefront DRM-free, I will often go there to buy. Or I buy from GoG which takes a smaller cut. Playnite lets me launch my Steam and non-Steam games in a seamless fashion. Steam still does a great job as a game installer/patch manager, and helps me discover new games. But I'm not locked into paying them a 30% fee, which is pretty brutal for some smaller publishers.
- mattl 3y ago
  Windows only?
  - jquery 3y ago
    It can run on Linux/Steam Deck apparently: https://www.reddit.com/r/playnite/comments/15q2x16/i_installed_playnite_on_linux_steam_deck/ https://www.reddit.com/r/playnite/comments/15q2x16/i_install... I have only used it on my Windows install, so I can't recommend this.
hyperbovine 3y ago
Who is being forced to use iOS?
- beefsack 3y ago
  Not being forced to use iOS, but if you are on iOS you are forced to use the app store.
- nkrisc 3y ago

huytersd 3y ago

A whole lot to say not much. It’s reviews and forums.

johnnyanmac 3y ago

>Not every game benefits from all these things. But it's hardly just a storefront. yeah, that's my issue. but it's all or nothing because the only thing that really matters is presence. So you just suck it up or use another store (or distribute independently). >Gamers prefer Steam over EGS, and the reason they prefer it isn't just because "it's a nicer store front." It's a whole platform thing. It's really just network effects at the end of the day. We've seen enough instances in other places in tech where the de facto is shit and even actively ruining its product, but people stay. Sad thing isn't how big it is, it's how hard it is to fail.

yrro 3y ago

Don't forget the network backbone for multiplayer game traffic. I'd love to see a "what has Steam ever done for us?" sketch produced :)

nsagent 3y ago

I'm honestly surprised no one has mentioned the Most Favored Nation clause, which helps enforce Steam's ability to charge 30%. https://www.pcgamer.com/lawsuit-claims-valve-is-abusing-its-market-dominance-to-keep-prices-high/ https://www.pcgamer.com/lawsuit-claims-valve-is-abusing-its-... https://www.masonllp.com/case/valve-mass-arbitration/ https://www.masonllp.com/case/valve-mass-arbitration/