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I remember a startup that had a great product that would match you, a person with a questiojn about a topic, with an expert on that topic, over gChat. Google ac

by dekhn 3y ago

I remember a startup that had a great product that would match you, a person with a questiojn about a topic, with an expert on that topic, over gChat. Google acquired them, and they immediately were told they had to port their infra into google3 and borg. This was a short window where the new hotness was help-over-chat. They rewrote their whole system and then Google told them they didn't actually need the product (and from what I can tell, the help-over-gchat idea isn't really a product space any more). So they pivoted and made user profiles- that is, for every user at google, they inspected all the history of that user, and made a simple model that represented them. at the same time, several other groups were competing to the same thing- and a more powerful team licked the cookie and took ownership of user models at google (often, the leadership would set up various teams in competition and then "pick a winner"). After a few years, all the acquihires left google in disgust, because google had basically taken their product, killed it, forced them to pivot, and then killed their pivot. What a shame and waste of resources.

s3r3nity 3y ago
This tracks with what I've heard from other friends & colleagues; one data point could be an anecdote but seeing/hearing similar stories multiple times over the past decade+ creates a trend. Google Product Management is almost meme-level bad, and is carried + boosted by such great talent in virtually 95% of other departments at the company. As an easy litmus test, think about whether or not you could quickly name 5 Google products still around that the company released in the past 20 years that _weren't_ seeded from acquisitions.
- caturopath 3y ago
  What are a couple somewhat-comparable companies with really good product management?
jiveturkey 3y ago
competition isn’t a waste. for a google kind of company it’s fine. is it a waste when 20 companies compete in the open market for note taking apps, and 15 of them die completely? google happens to be big enough to have an internal market, that’s all. your team isn't guaranteed to win. but your work output isn't considered a waste, unlike the open market. some of the ideas might survive in another shape. remember wave? and you move on to the next project. (promo considerations aside) different people will of course internalize it differently. some bitterly. I'm not referring to the plethora of chat apps. Those are wasteful and demonstrative of google's failings.
- Retric 3y ago
  It is actually wasteful to build 15 note taking apps that die. Free markets limit inefficiency as individual actors can only run out of money individually unlike governments who can bankrupt everyone. Google gets the worst of both worlds by having multiple internal projects and having management pick winners. It’s exactly the kind of waste you get from monopolies where efficiency takes a back seat to politics.
- JohnClark1337 3y ago
  [dead]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
eep_social 3y ago
> help-over-gchat idea isn't really a product space any more Couldn’t disagree more, most web presences in B2C have a chat box where you can talk to someone or something on the other end. Usually they’re horrible but when they’re good they’re fucking great. I think the other problems you outline, plus the fact that google went through this process with gchat itself (anyone remember Allo?) are probably the main contributors. As a sibling comment notes: google’s product org is meme-level terrible from top to bottom.
- dekhn 3y ago
  help-over-gchat and B2C chat are two different things. help-over-gchat was a matching system that allowed you to either ask a question about a topic, or declare that you know about a topic, and the system would match question-askers with question-answerers, all through gChat.
  - eep_social 3y ago
    Good point. In my eyes it’s a PMF problem and an issue with their product team that Google couldn’t pivot. I know in 2023 a major CRM vendor has been rolling out the same idea as part of their SaaS. They’re trying to match individual customer service reps with depth of expertise across a broad product range. Not sure how much success they’re having but the idea is solid and requires an interesting combinatorial solver to figure out “good” matches within various constraints beyond expertise like individual workload, time zones, etc. with the goal to drive down case resolution time. Google is terrible at product and terrible at taking the long view, despite having known for decades that they’re going to struggle with innovators dilemma.
fidotron 3y ago
I think the outside world massively underestimates the viciousness of politics in the upper echelons of Google, and how it has been that way for a very long time. (It predates Sundar ascending to CEO). I have never worked for Google, but closely enough with teams and execs in those upper regions to know how the sausage is made and it forever soured me on possibly working there (and I believe that is entirely mutual). The post acquisitions which are not quite merged into the mothership teams tend to be on the receiving end of much of the worst, and it leads to the result where the survivors are the most obnoxious. "Licking the cookie" has to be the single most common phrase that came up, but my general sense was that both Google and FB are full of weasels, only the latter is much more honest about it. Neither is particularly desirable. EDIT: Feel the need to qualify, there is a lot of superb technical work there on many many teams, but it is the co-ordination of that (especially fights over gatekeeping that which goes forward) which is a total mess. The resulting strategic blunders and failure to execute create huge friction with the outside world.
- shostack 3y ago
  Can you share more details or anecdotes of politics there?

by dekhn 3y ago

s3r3nity 3y ago

This tracks with what I've heard from other friends & colleagues; one data point could be an anecdote but seeing/hearing similar stories multiple times over the past decade+ creates a trend. Google Product Management is almost meme-level bad, and is carried + boosted by such great talent in virtually 95% of other departments at the company. As an easy litmus test, think about whether or not you could quickly name 5 Google products still around that the company released in the past 20 years that _weren't_ seeded from acquisitions.

caturopath 3y ago
What are a couple somewhat-comparable companies with really good product management?

jiveturkey 3y ago

competition isn’t a waste. for a google kind of company it’s fine. is it a waste when 20 companies compete in the open market for note taking apps, and 15 of them die completely? google happens to be big enough to have an internal market, that’s all. your team isn't guaranteed to win. but your work output isn't considered a waste, unlike the open market. some of the ideas might survive in another shape. remember wave? and you move on to the next project. (promo considerations aside) different people will of course internalize it differently. some bitterly. I'm not referring to the plethora of chat apps. Those are wasteful and demonstrative of google's failings.

Retric 3y ago
It is actually wasteful to build 15 note taking apps that die. Free markets limit inefficiency as individual actors can only run out of money individually unlike governments who can bankrupt everyone. Google gets the worst of both worlds by having multiple internal projects and having management pick winners. It’s exactly the kind of waste you get from monopolies where efficiency takes a back seat to politics.
JohnClark1337 3y ago
[dead]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

eep_social 3y ago

> help-over-gchat idea isn't really a product space any more Couldn’t disagree more, most web presences in B2C have a chat box where you can talk to someone or something on the other end. Usually they’re horrible but when they’re good they’re fucking great. I think the other problems you outline, plus the fact that google went through this process with gchat itself (anyone remember Allo?) are probably the main contributors. As a sibling comment notes: google’s product org is meme-level terrible from top to bottom.

dekhn 3y ago
help-over-gchat and B2C chat are two different things. help-over-gchat was a matching system that allowed you to either ask a question about a topic, or declare that you know about a topic, and the system would match question-askers with question-answerers, all through gChat.
- eep_social 3y ago
  Good point. In my eyes it’s a PMF problem and an issue with their product team that Google couldn’t pivot. I know in 2023 a major CRM vendor has been rolling out the same idea as part of their SaaS. They’re trying to match individual customer service reps with depth of expertise across a broad product range. Not sure how much success they’re having but the idea is solid and requires an interesting combinatorial solver to figure out “good” matches within various constraints beyond expertise like individual workload, time zones, etc. with the goal to drive down case resolution time. Google is terrible at product and terrible at taking the long view, despite having known for decades that they’re going to struggle with innovators dilemma.

fidotron 3y ago

I think the outside world massively underestimates the viciousness of politics in the upper echelons of Google, and how it has been that way for a very long time. (It predates Sundar ascending to CEO). I have never worked for Google, but closely enough with teams and execs in those upper regions to know how the sausage is made and it forever soured me on possibly working there (and I believe that is entirely mutual). The post acquisitions which are not quite merged into the mothership teams tend to be on the receiving end of much of the worst, and it leads to the result where the survivors are the most obnoxious. "Licking the cookie" has to be the single most common phrase that came up, but my general sense was that both Google and FB are full of weasels, only the latter is much more honest about it. Neither is particularly desirable. EDIT: Feel the need to qualify, there is a lot of superb technical work there on many many teams, but it is the co-ordination of that (especially fights over gatekeeping that which goes forward) which is a total mess. The resulting strategic blunders and failure to execute create huge friction with the outside world.

shostack 3y ago
Can you share more details or anecdotes of politics there?