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I haven't found it so. I've stuck with pip and adopted venv when it showed up, and haven't needed anything else. I use Docker for "pinned" builds.

by xapata 3y ago

eviks 3y ago
venv and docker are exactly the indicators of how Python is bad
- globular-toast 3y ago
  Are screws bad because you need a screwdriver?
  - eviks 3y ago
    You're mistaking hammer for a screwdriver
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    That's a completely nonsensical analogy. Maybe you missed his point, but well designed programming language infrastructure does not need Docker or venv to work. The fact that you have to resort to the massive hack of Docker shows how bad the situation is. I do not have to use Docker or a venv for my Rust, Go or Deno builds.
    - xapata 3y ago
      I'm not a Rustacian, but so far I much prefer Python's packaging to Go's. Italicize all you like. I don't find the emphasis convincing. When I receive a Python program that I'd like to modify, I can. When I receive a Go program that I'd like to modify, I must beg for the source code. Do you "vendor" your database into your Go program? If not, you likely still need Docker, or something like it, for your program to work.
    - globular-toast 3y ago
      No, but you have to use Rust, Go or Deno.
      - IshKebab 3y ago
        I get to use Rust, Go or Deno (for my own projects). I am forced to use Python for work unfortunately. It's not a terrible language for sure. It's just the packaging systems and tooling around it that are face-palmingly awful.
        globular-toast 3y ago
        The thing is I've learnt Python packaging one time basically (obviously there's always more to learn about anything) and that's enabled me to write a ton more software than I would have written otherwise. For example, just a little plotting utility for me to visualise my accounting data. It's on GitHub, but nobody uses it but me. Could you imagine me writing this in anything but Python? If your projects really do benefit from other languages, maybe you're doing network or systems applications that need to be fast, then you might have easier packaging but those languages require easy more work due to fewer libraries or just being harder (Rust). As usual with these things it's six of one and half a dozen of the other :)

I haven't found it so. I've stuck with pip and adopted venv when it showed up, and haven't needed anything else. I use Docker for "pinned" builds.

by xapata 3y ago

I haven't found it so. I've stuck with pip and adopted venv when it showed up, and haven't needed anything else. I use Docker for "pinned" builds.

eviks 3y ago

venv and docker are exactly the indicators of how Python is bad

globular-toast 3y ago
Are screws bad because you need a screwdriver?
- eviks 3y ago
  You're mistaking hammer for a screwdriver
- IshKebab 3y ago
  That's a completely nonsensical analogy. Maybe you missed his point, but well designed programming language infrastructure does not need Docker or venv to work. The fact that you have to resort to the massive hack of Docker shows how bad the situation is. I do not have to use Docker or a venv for my Rust, Go or Deno builds.
  - xapata 3y ago
    I'm not a Rustacian, but so far I much prefer Python's packaging to Go's. Italicize all you like. I don't find the emphasis convincing. When I receive a Python program that I'd like to modify, I can. When I receive a Go program that I'd like to modify, I must beg for the source code. Do you "vendor" your database into your Go program? If not, you likely still need Docker, or something like it, for your program to work.
  - globular-toast 3y ago
    No, but you have to use Rust, Go or Deno.
    - IshKebab 3y ago
      I get to use Rust, Go or Deno (for my own projects). I am forced to use Python for work unfortunately. It's not a terrible language for sure. It's just the packaging systems and tooling around it that are face-palmingly awful.
      - globular-toast 3y ago
        The thing is I've learnt Python packaging one time basically (obviously there's always more to learn about anything) and that's enabled me to write a ton more software than I would have written otherwise. For example, just a little plotting utility for me to visualise my accounting data. It's on GitHub, but nobody uses it but me. Could you imagine me writing this in anything but Python? If your projects really do benefit from other languages, maybe you're doing network or systems applications that need to be fast, then you might have easier packaging but those languages require easy more work due to fewer libraries or just being harder (Rust). As usual with these things it's six of one and half a dozen of the other :)