6 ms·

American companies often think that European unions are just stronger than unions in Europe. They don't realize that labor and union laws are different. Toys R

by nabla9 3y ago

American companies often think that European unions are just stronger than unions in Europe. They don't realize that labor and union laws are different. Toys R Us tried the same in Sweden. They initially refused agreement and hired only non-union workers. But transport and logistics workers union and finance union started sympathy strike. Toys R Us didn't get deliveries and bank workers refused work related to company.

INTPenis 3y ago
Another oft cited example is the McDonalds strike of '88 in Denmark. I'm very proud of being part of this scandinavian society when it shows this kind of solidarity with workers. Workers are after all the majority of society.
Ekaros 3y ago
Also they forget that on average they are pretty benign. At least in my field they ask for quite tame things. And them being same union for everyone means that you don't really lose much to competitors. As they will have same rules in place...
- VoxPelli 3y ago
  Yeah, the idea of the Swedish model being that it’s better for employers and workers union to decide details as then they can be adapted to the need of every specific field rather than be dictated by the government and be the same for all. Makes for a much more agile, progressive and cooperative environment that benefits both businesses and workers. Unions in Sweden don’t try to get paid the most possible by the employers – they want fair wages and healthy companies and together with employer organizations they try to make up rules that benefit both, as healthy companies and happy workers are beneficial for all parties
  - DanielHB 3y ago
    I had 3.5% union-agreed raise this year against an almost 10% inflation year-on-year. In Sweden the unions are not out to screw the employers over, the unions know the companies are under stress due to market downturn and share the burden with employees. Before the downturn I consistently had at least 1% raise above inflation for several years.
    - dv_dt 3y ago
      That seems like it supports the principle of shared pain and shared profit and it’s good that the laws and company/union structure supports that. I think it’s better for stable long term stability and growth of a nation.
      - Moru 3y ago
        Can you tell Musk etc this? They havn't gotten the message yet. McDonads got it after trying on the Danish union though and is playing ball.
- nabla9 3y ago
  Good point. Sweden has better institutions and labor laws to reduce friction and enable cooperation. Enterprise bargaining in the US is more zero sum game between companies and workers. Everything you give to workers, reduces competitive edge against non-union competitors. It's in company interest to fight unions as much as possible. In sectoral bargaining, unions negotiate same deal with their counterparts representing corporations. When nobody gets competitive edge over others, there is less downside for agreeing.
  - VoxPelli 3y ago
    And when the government is in on it as well and gives the unions and employer organizations room to be innovative and flexible with one another, then it’s even a net gain over having the government giving detailed guidelines for everything
  - avgcorrection 3y ago
    > Enterprise bargaining in the US is more zero sum game between companies and workers. Everything you give to workers, reduces competitive edge against non-union competitors. It's in company interest to fight unions as much as possible. I suppose they will always hide behind “competitive” edge. The more naked truth seems to be that between the stakeholders of the CEO+board of directors v.s. workers—avoiding the nebolous “company interest”—there is always inherently a zero sum game. Like one of the automative CEOs in the US who boasted about how she was paid according to her performance—her performance being, among other things, directly related to how low she could keep wages for the rank and file.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      Yes, there is always a competition between workers and owners for money. However, The structure of US unions also change the incentives.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    I would also add that many (most?) European countries allow multiple unions in the same shop, with worker choice. Inter-union competition is important to keep unions honest and aligned with their workers. I think this more than anything else is responsible for the anti-union sentiment in the US.
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  > Also they forget that on average they are pretty benign. They are not malign as far as I’ve heard, no.
Varqu 3y ago
[flagged]
- mschuster91 3y ago
  It may sound crazy, but European union laws explicitly allow this.
  - avgcorrection 3y ago
    Welcome to the Anglo Internet, where we as a knee-jerk reaction equate worker power with illegality and organized crime! [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38192473 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38192473
- yladiz 3y ago
  Which law is being broken here?
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
One of the key points to being unionized is the fact of solidarity with other union workers. that is where the power in unionization comes from. Literally, the entire purpose of unions is to give employees enough economic power to fight greedy CEOs, managers and boards As it stands now, corporations are entirely too powerful that the only way to actually fight back is to create collective support structures
- monocasa 3y ago
  Which is why solidarity strikes have been illegal in the US since 1947's Taft-Hartley Act.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    Precisely this. This is a perfect example of how corporate ownership of the political process has usurped the actual function of government responsible to the poorest people, in favor of taking care of corporate interests A great example of how oligarchical power is literally built into our legal infrastructure
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > corporate ownership of the political process has usurped the actual function of government responsible to the poorest people This is a curious diagnosis of a late 40s law. Consider why average Americans, including those in the lowest rung, vote against pro-union legislation (or don’t turn out for it), as well as the difference between Swedish and American unions.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Collectivism vs rugged individualism and exceptionalism with a serving of low empathy self interest institutionalized.
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
audunw 3y ago
Want to share my reply to a comment reply here that was deleted, which called this “crazy”: It’s not crazy. It’s a very effective way of balancing the power dynamics between corporations and workers. What’s crazy is not having these rights enshrined in law. Why should the government tell workers how they can or cannot strike? This way of doing it gets you one thing that some Americans dream of: no federal mandated universal minimum wage. I mean think about it… a universal federal minimum wage is a ridiculous idea. It’s never going to be a good level for all industries. But if you’re going to make minimum wage something that workers and corporations can just settle between themselves, you have to give the workers real power. Not make national laws that give corporations the right to make contracts that make their workers slaves to their employers. Some American think this is socialism. I’d argue that it’s just good capitalism that ensures healthy (labour) market dynamics. Same as how you want regulations that discourage the formation of monopolies.
- VirusNewbie 3y ago
  Except immigrants will come to the country and be willing to work for lower wages, they will be OK without taking the union benefits. Unions are a way to enrich current members by creating an exclusive cartel. How do you deal with the fact that there are people willing to work for less?
  - MrDresden 3y ago
    Icelander here. We have 90+% union participation in the country. A large portion of certain unions are immigrant workers. They have at numerous times gone on strike for better pay. So, at least here, your hypothesis does not seem to hold. This is probably due to the unions educating those immigrant workers on what their rights are.
    - bbarn 3y ago
      Iceland also has very bizarre "union" structures that more resemble professional associations than unions in other countries. When I worked at a software company in Kópavogur, on my team of 7 there were at least 4 different unions represented.
usrusr 3y ago
European labor law tends to be aimed at productive compromise. By comparison, American unionization appears polarized into almost winner takes all extreme.
croes 3y ago
>European unions are just stronger than unions in Europe. Typo?
dylan604 3y ago
I have issues with unions becoming way too powerful and prevent things from being done efficiently. I get certain aspects are safety related like needing an electrician to come in to wire up certain things. But I've had a friend that was a network installer that was allowed to mount the gear in the rack and wire in the low voltage ethernet cabling, but was not allowed to attache the power cord. That required the time of an electrician union member. On their schedule. After installing the gear, he had to wait doing nothing until this could happen. These types of rules are dumb, but show the overreaching power of unions. There are plenty of stories/examples (so not just n=1) of these kinds of boneheaded rules that just make things very inefficient.
- dagw 3y ago
  That required the time of an electrician union member. For what it's worth, that is simply not a thing in Sweden. Being a union member (or not) is completely separated from any certifications or licensing. You cannot have being a union member as a requirement for hiring someone or have jobs that are only open to union members.
  - Moru 3y ago
    As we keep saying, US Unions !== Swedish Unions (Or Scandinavian for that matter) Maybe the US Unions need to change name to something else because they act nothing like Unions in Europe. From what I see described by movies and companies it sounds more like Maffia, is that correct or is it propaganda?
    - dylan604 3y ago
      their tactics are very maffiaesque. a previous job went through the process to vote for a union, and during the lead up to it, there were definite examples of pressuring to family members. two individuals showed up to my apartment while i was at work, and were best described by my roommate as goons. they tried to talk to my roommate about why it would be a good idea for me to join even though the roommate had nothing to do with anything i did. she told me it was a very surreal experience.

by nabla9 3y ago

INTPenis 3y ago

Another oft cited example is the McDonalds strike of '88 in Denmark. I'm very proud of being part of this scandinavian society when it shows this kind of solidarity with workers. Workers are after all the majority of society.

Ekaros 3y ago

Also they forget that on average they are pretty benign. At least in my field they ask for quite tame things. And them being same union for everyone means that you don't really lose much to competitors. As they will have same rules in place...

VoxPelli 3y ago
Yeah, the idea of the Swedish model being that it’s better for employers and workers union to decide details as then they can be adapted to the need of every specific field rather than be dictated by the government and be the same for all. Makes for a much more agile, progressive and cooperative environment that benefits both businesses and workers. Unions in Sweden don’t try to get paid the most possible by the employers – they want fair wages and healthy companies and together with employer organizations they try to make up rules that benefit both, as healthy companies and happy workers are beneficial for all parties
- DanielHB 3y ago
  I had 3.5% union-agreed raise this year against an almost 10% inflation year-on-year. In Sweden the unions are not out to screw the employers over, the unions know the companies are under stress due to market downturn and share the burden with employees. Before the downturn I consistently had at least 1% raise above inflation for several years.
  - dv_dt 3y ago
    That seems like it supports the principle of shared pain and shared profit and it’s good that the laws and company/union structure supports that. I think it’s better for stable long term stability and growth of a nation.
    - Moru 3y ago
      Can you tell Musk etc this? They havn't gotten the message yet. McDonads got it after trying on the Danish union though and is playing ball.
nabla9 3y ago
Good point. Sweden has better institutions and labor laws to reduce friction and enable cooperation. Enterprise bargaining in the US is more zero sum game between companies and workers. Everything you give to workers, reduces competitive edge against non-union competitors. It's in company interest to fight unions as much as possible. In sectoral bargaining, unions negotiate same deal with their counterparts representing corporations. When nobody gets competitive edge over others, there is less downside for agreeing.
- VoxPelli 3y ago
  And when the government is in on it as well and gives the unions and employer organizations room to be innovative and flexible with one another, then it’s even a net gain over having the government giving detailed guidelines for everything
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  > Enterprise bargaining in the US is more zero sum game between companies and workers. Everything you give to workers, reduces competitive edge against non-union competitors. It's in company interest to fight unions as much as possible. I suppose they will always hide behind “competitive” edge. The more naked truth seems to be that between the stakeholders of the CEO+board of directors v.s. workers—avoiding the nebolous “company interest”—there is always inherently a zero sum game. Like one of the automative CEOs in the US who boasted about how she was paid according to her performance—her performance being, among other things, directly related to how low she could keep wages for the rank and file.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Yes, there is always a competition between workers and owners for money. However, The structure of US unions also change the incentives.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  I would also add that many (most?) European countries allow multiple unions in the same shop, with worker choice. Inter-union competition is important to keep unions honest and aligned with their workers. I think this more than anything else is responsible for the anti-union sentiment in the US.
avgcorrection 3y ago
> Also they forget that on average they are pretty benign. They are not malign as far as I’ve heard, no.

Varqu 3y ago

[flagged]

mschuster91 3y ago
It may sound crazy, but European union laws explicitly allow this.
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  Welcome to the Anglo Internet, where we as a knee-jerk reaction equate worker power with illegality and organized crime! [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38192473 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38192473
yladiz 3y ago
Which law is being broken here?

AndrewKemendo 3y ago

One of the key points to being unionized is the fact of solidarity with other union workers. that is where the power in unionization comes from. Literally, the entire purpose of unions is to give employees enough economic power to fight greedy CEOs, managers and boards As it stands now, corporations are entirely too powerful that the only way to actually fight back is to create collective support structures

monocasa 3y ago
Which is why solidarity strikes have been illegal in the US since 1947's Taft-Hartley Act.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  Precisely this. This is a perfect example of how corporate ownership of the political process has usurped the actual function of government responsible to the poorest people, in favor of taking care of corporate interests A great example of how oligarchical power is literally built into our legal infrastructure
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > corporate ownership of the political process has usurped the actual function of government responsible to the poorest people This is a curious diagnosis of a late 40s law. Consider why average Americans, including those in the lowest rung, vote against pro-union legislation (or don’t turn out for it), as well as the difference between Swedish and American unions.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Collectivism vs rugged individualism and exceptionalism with a serving of low empathy self interest institutionalized.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago

audunw 3y ago

Want to share my reply to a comment reply here that was deleted, which called this “crazy”: It’s not crazy. It’s a very effective way of balancing the power dynamics between corporations and workers. What’s crazy is not having these rights enshrined in law. Why should the government tell workers how they can or cannot strike? This way of doing it gets you one thing that some Americans dream of: no federal mandated universal minimum wage. I mean think about it… a universal federal minimum wage is a ridiculous idea. It’s never going to be a good level for all industries. But if you’re going to make minimum wage something that workers and corporations can just settle between themselves, you have to give the workers real power. Not make national laws that give corporations the right to make contracts that make their workers slaves to their employers. Some American think this is socialism. I’d argue that it’s just good capitalism that ensures healthy (labour) market dynamics. Same as how you want regulations that discourage the formation of monopolies.

VirusNewbie 3y ago
Except immigrants will come to the country and be willing to work for lower wages, they will be OK without taking the union benefits. Unions are a way to enrich current members by creating an exclusive cartel. How do you deal with the fact that there are people willing to work for less?
- MrDresden 3y ago
  Icelander here. We have 90+% union participation in the country. A large portion of certain unions are immigrant workers. They have at numerous times gone on strike for better pay. So, at least here, your hypothesis does not seem to hold. This is probably due to the unions educating those immigrant workers on what their rights are.
  - bbarn 3y ago
    Iceland also has very bizarre "union" structures that more resemble professional associations than unions in other countries. When I worked at a software company in Kópavogur, on my team of 7 there were at least 4 different unions represented.

usrusr 3y ago

European labor law tends to be aimed at productive compromise. By comparison, American unionization appears polarized into almost winner takes all extreme.

croes 3y ago

>European unions are just stronger than unions in Europe. Typo?

dylan604 3y ago

I have issues with unions becoming way too powerful and prevent things from being done efficiently. I get certain aspects are safety related like needing an electrician to come in to wire up certain things. But I've had a friend that was a network installer that was allowed to mount the gear in the rack and wire in the low voltage ethernet cabling, but was not allowed to attache the power cord. That required the time of an electrician union member. On their schedule. After installing the gear, he had to wait doing nothing until this could happen. These types of rules are dumb, but show the overreaching power of unions. There are plenty of stories/examples (so not just n=1) of these kinds of boneheaded rules that just make things very inefficient.

dagw 3y ago
That required the time of an electrician union member. For what it's worth, that is simply not a thing in Sweden. Being a union member (or not) is completely separated from any certifications or licensing. You cannot have being a union member as a requirement for hiring someone or have jobs that are only open to union members.
- Moru 3y ago
  As we keep saying, US Unions !== Swedish Unions (Or Scandinavian for that matter) Maybe the US Unions need to change name to something else because they act nothing like Unions in Europe. From what I see described by movies and companies it sounds more like Maffia, is that correct or is it propaganda?
  - dylan604 3y ago
    their tactics are very maffiaesque. a previous job went through the process to vote for a union, and during the lead up to it, there were definite examples of pressuring to family members. two individuals showed up to my apartment while i was at work, and were best described by my roommate as goons. they tried to talk to my roommate about why it would be a good idea for me to join even though the roommate had nothing to do with anything i did. she told me it was a very surreal experience.