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So, since there is not a good solution[1] to "protect the children", let's screw up everyone's privacy (and security) ... seems a reasonable tread off to me. [

So, since there is not a good solution[1] to "protect the children", let's screw up everyone's privacy (and security) ... seems a reasonable tread off to me. [1] actually I don't think that is true, but let suppose so

eimrine 3y ago
So the children are going to be both less protected and... ought to be educated enough not to produce photos which might cast CSAM willing to protect them from themselves. [1] Let me guess, the "good solution" you claimed as existing has been described by you already.
- Freak_NL 3y ago
  With the current batch of proposals the child (teenager usually) making home-made porn¹ would get flagged and in the worst case scenario get marked as a CSAM producer or end up on some indelible list of sexual predators depending on the jurisdiction. Can you imagine what will happen next? For what? Doing what their hormones made them do without harming anyone? Educate them, absolutely. Monitor their every move online because they might do something stupid? That's an option I would like to limit to their parents/guardians, if it all, not any state or bigtech corporation, and certainly not any automated flagging system. 1: Not CSAM; let's limit this line of thought to consensually made porn.
  - toast0 3y ago
    Afaik, scanning approaches are checking images against known images. It's not an image classifier, it's a perceptual hash. Of course, possessing or distributing images of underage naked people can get you on a sex offender list, even if that naked person is you. That's a different issue.
    - Freak_NL 3y ago
      It's a black-box, and unverifiable by design. With a false flag sufficing to ruin your life, I'd rather take no chances for a nebulously defined benefit. In the end all this does is mark those apps participating as unsafe for people who do, incredibly, feel safe now to post such images through a service like WhatsApp or IMessage (do these people even exist?). They'll use something else, and the people you do catch are just idiots and teenagers. And that false flag event is hardly far-fetched with the extremely broad definition CSAM has. I'm pretty sure that if a parent photographs their 13 year old daughter proudly posing in her new bikini on the beach, and sends it to grandma who naively posts it on Facebook, where someone downloads it for their personal sexual gratification, then posts it on some image hosting site for bragging rights, where it gets hoovered up for the great CSAM database because that site was filled with photos of scantily clad children, and now when the partner of the above parent asks them to send those photos they took of their daughter on the beach for the holiday photo-album they're making, and boom, they are on a list. Unlikely? With unaccountable processes and black-box databases things like this will happen, and that is excluding the likelihood of bugs happening (which is inevitable).
    - emilecantin 3y ago
      > Of course, possessing or distributing images of underage naked people can get you on a sex offender list, even if that naked person is you. I have a very hard time with this. These laws which are ostensibly there to protect the children are actually used to persecute these same children. Any proposal "to protect the children" that doesn't address this is full of shit.

eimrine 3y ago

So the children are going to be both less protected and... ought to be educated enough not to produce photos which might cast CSAM willing to protect them from themselves. [1] Let me guess, the "good solution" you claimed as existing has been described by you already.

Freak_NL 3y ago
With the current batch of proposals the child (teenager usually) making home-made porn¹ would get flagged and in the worst case scenario get marked as a CSAM producer or end up on some indelible list of sexual predators depending on the jurisdiction. Can you imagine what will happen next? For what? Doing what their hormones made them do without harming anyone? Educate them, absolutely. Monitor their every move online because they might do something stupid? That's an option I would like to limit to their parents/guardians, if it all, not any state or bigtech corporation, and certainly not any automated flagging system. 1: Not CSAM; let's limit this line of thought to consensually made porn.
- toast0 3y ago
  Afaik, scanning approaches are checking images against known images. It's not an image classifier, it's a perceptual hash. Of course, possessing or distributing images of underage naked people can get you on a sex offender list, even if that naked person is you. That's a different issue.
  - Freak_NL 3y ago
    It's a black-box, and unverifiable by design. With a false flag sufficing to ruin your life, I'd rather take no chances for a nebulously defined benefit. In the end all this does is mark those apps participating as unsafe for people who do, incredibly, feel safe now to post such images through a service like WhatsApp or IMessage (do these people even exist?). They'll use something else, and the people you do catch are just idiots and teenagers. And that false flag event is hardly far-fetched with the extremely broad definition CSAM has. I'm pretty sure that if a parent photographs their 13 year old daughter proudly posing in her new bikini on the beach, and sends it to grandma who naively posts it on Facebook, where someone downloads it for their personal sexual gratification, then posts it on some image hosting site for bragging rights, where it gets hoovered up for the great CSAM database because that site was filled with photos of scantily clad children, and now when the partner of the above parent asks them to send those photos they took of their daughter on the beach for the holiday photo-album they're making, and boom, they are on a list. Unlikely? With unaccountable processes and black-box databases things like this will happen, and that is excluding the likelihood of bugs happening (which is inevitable).
  - emilecantin 3y ago
    > Of course, possessing or distributing images of underage naked people can get you on a sex offender list, even if that naked person is you. I have a very hard time with this. These laws which are ostensibly there to protect the children are actually used to persecute these same children. Any proposal "to protect the children" that doesn't address this is full of shit.