5 ms·

At what point would it be considered entrapment to have law enforcement run these honeypots?

by chii 3y ago

smegsicle 3y ago
something about working to convince someone that breaking the law is a good idea
pilif 3y ago
According to the article, in this case it was a (pretty obvious) parody website and the webmaster called law enforcement on their own.
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  If the parody was obvious, why isn’t being a customer also considered parody? If it was a real hitman site, presumably it would be illegal for the site owner and not just customers.
  - yieldcrv 3y ago
    she was charged with "threatening communications over interstate commerce", if she had money for appeals court she'd probably walk free with a constitutionally questionable law like that just because the feds never go after anyone with money with their weaker laws doesn't mean their laws represent legality or illegality. you just still might wind up in prison for being indicted and convicted of something illegal. this changes when you're rich and your rights matter if they indicted her with a conspiracy charge that could be stronger. but I've seen those get dropped on appeal too specifically with some kind of parody/fan fiction defense. so what's the difference? it's unresolved.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - tedunangst 3y ago
    Lesson learned: don't take your assassin larp to Waffle House.
    - mcphage 3y ago
      No, I’m pretty sure that’s the exact right place to take them.
  - pilif 3y ago
    > why isn’t being a customer also considered parody I'm pretty sure you can claim that in a court. However, making an offline appointment with a hitman and then making them an offer and even making a first down payment for the service is probably difficult to explain away as parody.
Kamq 3y ago
If the government agency running the honeypot went out and started badgering people into contracting hits. That would be entrapment, according to my understanding.
- bochoh 3y ago
  So retargeting ads for people that started to fill out a request form but didn’t finish would be entrapment… got it!
  - ohdannyboy 3y ago
    Probably not. Law enforcement regularly targets drug stings against individuals they think are dealers but can't yet prove. It's still just an offer the subject wanted to engage in. Law Comics did a good job breaking the idea down and dealing with common misconceptions https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=633 https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=633
Duwensatzaj 3y ago
Probably never. Entrapment in US law is when the government creates the crime. Offering up the opportunity doesn’t create it, just catch those looking. Maybe if they started heavily advertising it, sending spam to the same person continuously for months on end. Even if an undercover cop asked you to hire a hitman and you say yes. Entrapment is more when you say “No” and the government agent keeps on begging you until you give in.
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  Ignoring the cases of entrapment for lesser crimes (I.e drug charges), I feel pretty okay with charging those that fall for a hit man (murder) honey pot. Am I backwards? Yea, it’s unsavory, and in some way unfair, in an academic sort of sense. But don’t hire someone to murder someone else, under any circumstances. Right?
jasonhansel 3y ago
It's only entrapment if you wouldn't have committed the crime otherwise. I think it's safe to say that, had Rentahitman.com not existed, she would still have tried to rent a hitman if she were able to do so.
- Misha_B 3y ago
  But what would she find one? Go to the second result on Google? Most people would never be able to find a real hitman since it would require taking very obvious risks to find a real hitman - and would just give up.
  - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
    This is the sort of thing that makes me wonder if I’m backward as all get’out. I’ve never been very tough-on-crime, but if you genuinely hire a hit (murder) on somebody through a shady website, and agree on a contract, well, this is an act that seems indefensible. The fact that it was a parody site seems amusing, but not defensible, since presumably she was not aware of the parody.
    - function_seven 3y ago
      The whole part about her meeting the hitman at a Waffle House, and giving him a $100 down payment seals the deal. That's not LARPing. That's an overt act. Guess I'm backward as well.
mc32 3y ago
It's not run by law enforcement. It's an individual who gets lots of "leads" most are obvious pranks --but he occasionally gets live ones. He forwards those on to local law enforcement, other times the FBI.
roshin 3y ago
I recall a story of a young police woman who enticed an autistic highschool guy to buy drugs. He was arrested for that. If that's not entrapment, I don't know what is.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  https://www.huffpost.com/entry/attractive-undercover-cop_b_1277330 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/attractive-undercover-cop_b_1... No mention of autistic victims, and they would be odd targets for this scheme.
  - Toutouxc 3y ago
    I think it was this. https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/the-entrapment-of-jesse-snodgrass-116008/ https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/the-entrapment-of-jesse...
    - thaumasiotes 3y ago
      That one does have an autistic victim, but it's missing the enticement by a female cop.
      - happymellon 3y ago
        It talks about another sting operation with a female cop in the middle of the article. So I can forgive the mistakes in memory for an irrelevant detail.
xboxnolifes 3y ago
At minimum, I'd expect that law enforcement would have to put significant amounts of advertisements of the services, along with persuasion to use them, for it to be considered entrapment. Just offering the service is not entrapment. There needs to be incitement.
gnopgnip 3y ago
It is only entrapment when the government induces a normally law abiding person to commit a crime, generally with harassment or threats or other overbearing behavior.

At what point would it be considered entrapment to have law enforcement run these honeypots?

by chii 3y ago

At what point would it be considered entrapment to have law enforcement run these honeypots?

smegsicle 3y ago

something about working to convince someone that breaking the law is a good idea

pilif 3y ago

According to the article, in this case it was a (pretty obvious) parody website and the webmaster called law enforcement on their own.

pfannkuchen 3y ago
If the parody was obvious, why isn’t being a customer also considered parody? If it was a real hitman site, presumably it would be illegal for the site owner and not just customers.
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  she was charged with "threatening communications over interstate commerce", if she had money for appeals court she'd probably walk free with a constitutionally questionable law like that just because the feds never go after anyone with money with their weaker laws doesn't mean their laws represent legality or illegality. you just still might wind up in prison for being indicted and convicted of something illegal. this changes when you're rich and your rights matter if they indicted her with a conspiracy charge that could be stronger. but I've seen those get dropped on appeal too specifically with some kind of parody/fan fiction defense. so what's the difference? it's unresolved.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- tedunangst 3y ago
  Lesson learned: don't take your assassin larp to Waffle House.
  - mcphage 3y ago
    No, I’m pretty sure that’s the exact right place to take them.
- pilif 3y ago
  > why isn’t being a customer also considered parody I'm pretty sure you can claim that in a court. However, making an offline appointment with a hitman and then making them an offer and even making a first down payment for the service is probably difficult to explain away as parody.

Kamq 3y ago

If the government agency running the honeypot went out and started badgering people into contracting hits. That would be entrapment, according to my understanding.

bochoh 3y ago
So retargeting ads for people that started to fill out a request form but didn’t finish would be entrapment… got it!
- ohdannyboy 3y ago
  Probably not. Law enforcement regularly targets drug stings against individuals they think are dealers but can't yet prove. It's still just an offer the subject wanted to engage in. Law Comics did a good job breaking the idea down and dealing with common misconceptions https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=633 https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=633

Duwensatzaj 3y ago

Probably never. Entrapment in US law is when the government creates the crime. Offering up the opportunity doesn’t create it, just catch those looking. Maybe if they started heavily advertising it, sending spam to the same person continuously for months on end. Even if an undercover cop asked you to hire a hitman and you say yes. Entrapment is more when you say “No” and the government agent keeps on begging you until you give in.

DiggyJohnson 3y ago
Ignoring the cases of entrapment for lesser crimes (I.e drug charges), I feel pretty okay with charging those that fall for a hit man (murder) honey pot. Am I backwards? Yea, it’s unsavory, and in some way unfair, in an academic sort of sense. But don’t hire someone to murder someone else, under any circumstances. Right?

jasonhansel 3y ago

It's only entrapment if you wouldn't have committed the crime otherwise. I think it's safe to say that, had Rentahitman.com not existed, she would still have tried to rent a hitman if she were able to do so.

Misha_B 3y ago
But what would she find one? Go to the second result on Google? Most people would never be able to find a real hitman since it would require taking very obvious risks to find a real hitman - and would just give up.
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  This is the sort of thing that makes me wonder if I’m backward as all get’out. I’ve never been very tough-on-crime, but if you genuinely hire a hit (murder) on somebody through a shady website, and agree on a contract, well, this is an act that seems indefensible. The fact that it was a parody site seems amusing, but not defensible, since presumably she was not aware of the parody.
  - function_seven 3y ago
    The whole part about her meeting the hitman at a Waffle House, and giving him a $100 down payment seals the deal. That's not LARPing. That's an overt act. Guess I'm backward as well.

mc32 3y ago

It's not run by law enforcement. It's an individual who gets lots of "leads" most are obvious pranks --but he occasionally gets live ones. He forwards those on to local law enforcement, other times the FBI.

roshin 3y ago

I recall a story of a young police woman who enticed an autistic highschool guy to buy drugs. He was arrested for that. If that's not entrapment, I don't know what is.

thaumasiotes 3y ago
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/attractive-undercover-cop_b_1277330 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/attractive-undercover-cop_b_1... No mention of autistic victims, and they would be odd targets for this scheme.
- Toutouxc 3y ago
  I think it was this. https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/the-entrapment-of-jesse-snodgrass-116008/ https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/the-entrapment-of-jesse...
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    That one does have an autistic victim, but it's missing the enticement by a female cop.
    - happymellon 3y ago
      It talks about another sting operation with a female cop in the middle of the article. So I can forgive the mistakes in memory for an irrelevant detail.

xboxnolifes 3y ago

At minimum, I'd expect that law enforcement would have to put significant amounts of advertisements of the services, along with persuasion to use them, for it to be considered entrapment. Just offering the service is not entrapment. There needs to be incitement.

gnopgnip 3y ago

It is only entrapment when the government induces a normally law abiding person to commit a crime, generally with harassment or threats or other overbearing behavior.