4 ms·

About time. But not nearly enough. Storage is cheap, cameras are cheap. People are expensive. Police misconduct is very expensive. At this point, policy shoul

About time. But not nearly enough. Storage is cheap, cameras are cheap. People are expensive. Police misconduct is very expensive. At this point, policy should be that all officers have three redundant cameras on and durably recording at all times. If your cameras are ever all off at the same time that’s a breach and you are immediately off duty and must face a disciplinary review.

freedomben 3y ago
I agree with you, but pragmatically, how do you handle bathroom breaks? Private phone calls with spouses?
- wpietri 3y ago
  You handle it by immediately giving copies of the video to police, prosecutors, and a police oversight board, all of whom have responsible processes for viewing and releasing video. Kept in video management tools with strong logging, access controls, and watermarking, so that anybody misbehaving is quickly caught. In practice, this shouldn't be hard. Those groups are all already used to handling evidence and data with privacy considerations. If their processes are solid, it shouldn't be a big change. And if not, well, it's good that cops get a personal interest in responsible data management.
  - sleepybrett 3y ago
    Just for some recent history. Seattle has/had a contract with a company that uses statistical techniques to analyze body cam footage in bulk looking for things that a human should review. Over the summer video footage was brought to light by them showing the vice president of the police union on the phone in his cruiser with his boss, the president, making light of a 26 year old citizen that another cop had run down while traveling at reckless speeds without his lights and sirens on. Now suddenly the police aren't renewing that contract. https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/14/us/seattle-police-officer-phone-comments-woman-killed/index.html#:~:text=The%20officer%2C%20Daniel%20Auderer%2C%20was,call%2C%20according%20to%20police%20documents https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/14/us/seattle-police-officer-pho.... https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2023/10/reports-seattle-police-canceled-body-cam-analysis-contract-after-union-leaders-accidentally-recorded-limited-value-crash-conversation/ https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2023/10/reports-seattle-p... Shoot all the footage you like, in the best case there is too much to review, in the worst case the unions will bury it.
    - wpietri 3y ago
      This is why I'm for robust, independent police oversight boards. There are reasonable answers to "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" if we want them.
      - sleepybrett 3y ago
        ... take a little google about seattle police oversight board. It's 100% toothless.
        Brian_K_White 3y ago
        So what? Problem: "We're getting wet!" Proposal: "What we need is a roof!" Pointless: "Take a little google about this roof that leaks..."
        sleepybrett 3y ago
        "Take a little google about this roof that leaks just like most other roofs leak."
        Brian_K_White 3y ago
        And yet, you still need a roof as part of your means to stay dry. Even if most roofs leak today. What point did you think you were making? Did you have some proposal for the problem that somehow does not include oversight and accountabiliy?
        btilly 3y ago
        How is pointing out that police oversight boards are not always robust or independent an argument against the position that robust, independent police oversight boards are a good thing? The example that you give is important because it shows what we have to fight against to get robust and independent police oversight boards. But the fact that it is possible to fail doesn't mean that we shouldn't try.
- throwawaysleep 3y ago
  What do they have to hide from those? Might be embarrassing, but they are innocent.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    I suspect that decision-makers with this attitude at most tech companies are a big part of why right to privacy is disappearing. At some point this is going to bite us hard in the ass, metaphorically speaking.
wpietri 3y ago
Absolutely. The police unions complain endlessly that the public just doesn't understand how it is for cops. That the complaints against them are almost always meritless. So show us! Record it all. Release the video any time there's a question. We give cops a legal monopoly on violence. I don't think, "show us how you're using it," is too much to ask.
btilly 3y ago
Suppose that you're a father, and a policeman comes to your door to inform you of the death of your son. Do you want that video to potentially turn up in a public records request? Do you trust the police IT infrastructure to be good enough that a hostile hacker can't hack the police to capture what should be a private moment for you? I'm all for a lot more monitoring of the police. But there are points I still want surveillance to stop.
- throwawaysleep 3y ago
  Tell people to come into the office for those things.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    That's a horrible idea. It's a much more public place than home, and "let's not talk about this here, come down to the station" is likely to be... not what some folks want to hear. Easily misconstrued.
- lapetitejort 3y ago
  Don't send a cop, send a grief counselor.
  - tw04 3y ago
    >Don't send a cop, send a grief counselor. Are you funding every police force in the country getting a grief counselor? Not everyone lives in a big city, in many places you can count the entire precinct staff on one hand. Your alternative is "bring someone in from a different city" - which means the family will likely find out by word of mouth that their loved one is dead.
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > Are you funding every police force in the country getting a grief counselor? Grief counselors are paid far less than cops, so tranferring work from the latter to the former would require negative funding.

freedomben 3y ago

I agree with you, but pragmatically, how do you handle bathroom breaks? Private phone calls with spouses?

wpietri 3y ago
You handle it by immediately giving copies of the video to police, prosecutors, and a police oversight board, all of whom have responsible processes for viewing and releasing video. Kept in video management tools with strong logging, access controls, and watermarking, so that anybody misbehaving is quickly caught. In practice, this shouldn't be hard. Those groups are all already used to handling evidence and data with privacy considerations. If their processes are solid, it shouldn't be a big change. And if not, well, it's good that cops get a personal interest in responsible data management.
- sleepybrett 3y ago
  Just for some recent history. Seattle has/had a contract with a company that uses statistical techniques to analyze body cam footage in bulk looking for things that a human should review. Over the summer video footage was brought to light by them showing the vice president of the police union on the phone in his cruiser with his boss, the president, making light of a 26 year old citizen that another cop had run down while traveling at reckless speeds without his lights and sirens on. Now suddenly the police aren't renewing that contract. https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/14/us/seattle-police-officer-phone-comments-woman-killed/index.html#:~:text=The%20officer%2C%20Daniel%20Auderer%2C%20was,call%2C%20according%20to%20police%20documents https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/14/us/seattle-police-officer-pho.... https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2023/10/reports-seattle-police-canceled-body-cam-analysis-contract-after-union-leaders-accidentally-recorded-limited-value-crash-conversation/ https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2023/10/reports-seattle-p... Shoot all the footage you like, in the best case there is too much to review, in the worst case the unions will bury it.
  - wpietri 3y ago
    This is why I'm for robust, independent police oversight boards. There are reasonable answers to "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" if we want them.
    - sleepybrett 3y ago
      ... take a little google about seattle police oversight board. It's 100% toothless.
      - Brian_K_White 3y ago
        So what? Problem: "We're getting wet!" Proposal: "What we need is a roof!" Pointless: "Take a little google about this roof that leaks..."
        sleepybrett 3y ago
        "Take a little google about this roof that leaks just like most other roofs leak."
        Brian_K_White 3y ago
        And yet, you still need a roof as part of your means to stay dry. Even if most roofs leak today. What point did you think you were making? Did you have some proposal for the problem that somehow does not include oversight and accountabiliy?
      - btilly 3y ago
        How is pointing out that police oversight boards are not always robust or independent an argument against the position that robust, independent police oversight boards are a good thing? The example that you give is important because it shows what we have to fight against to get robust and independent police oversight boards. But the fact that it is possible to fail doesn't mean that we shouldn't try.
throwawaysleep 3y ago
What do they have to hide from those? Might be embarrassing, but they are innocent.
- freedomben 3y ago
  I suspect that decision-makers with this attitude at most tech companies are a big part of why right to privacy is disappearing. At some point this is going to bite us hard in the ass, metaphorically speaking.

wpietri 3y ago

Absolutely. The police unions complain endlessly that the public just doesn't understand how it is for cops. That the complaints against them are almost always meritless. So show us! Record it all. Release the video any time there's a question. We give cops a legal monopoly on violence. I don't think, "show us how you're using it," is too much to ask.

btilly 3y ago

Suppose that you're a father, and a policeman comes to your door to inform you of the death of your son. Do you want that video to potentially turn up in a public records request? Do you trust the police IT infrastructure to be good enough that a hostile hacker can't hack the police to capture what should be a private moment for you? I'm all for a lot more monitoring of the police. But there are points I still want surveillance to stop.

throwawaysleep 3y ago
Tell people to come into the office for those things.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  That's a horrible idea. It's a much more public place than home, and "let's not talk about this here, come down to the station" is likely to be... not what some folks want to hear. Easily misconstrued.
lapetitejort 3y ago
Don't send a cop, send a grief counselor.
- tw04 3y ago
  >Don't send a cop, send a grief counselor. Are you funding every police force in the country getting a grief counselor? Not everyone lives in a big city, in many places you can count the entire precinct staff on one hand. Your alternative is "bring someone in from a different city" - which means the family will likely find out by word of mouth that their loved one is dead.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Are you funding every police force in the country getting a grief counselor? Grief counselors are paid far less than cops, so tranferring work from the latter to the former would require negative funding.