5 ms·

Yeah, this is strange to me. How can play store be a monopoly when you can just download and install any APK file anytime..

loceng 3y ago
One of the main arguments will be that Google doesn't make it easy enough to sideload apps, purposefully, adding friction as a dark pattern.
- lawlessone 3y ago
  Doing this on Android is still trivial compared to doing it on iOS. Doesn't the US use "case law"? And would the verdict in the iOS case set the precedent here? Saying that, Apple was ordered to do some other things they don't like so maybe that's what they want applied to Google?
  - leereeves 3y ago
    I don't think the Apple case sets a precedent, because that court didn't say that Apple wasn't a monopolist. > “The court does not find that it is impossible; only that Epic Games failed in its burden to demonstrate Apple is an illegal monopolist,” [U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers] wrote. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/10/apple-epic-decision-judge-market-monopoly/?itid=lk_inline_manual_16 https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/10/apple-e...
    - singleshot_ 3y ago
      Precedent is not set by a district court, but through the appeals process.
- wruza 3y ago
  How exactly could Google improve the experience?
  - lawlessone 3y ago
    Does windows still have to show that menu when you install of alternative browsers? Maybe like that?
    - wruza 3y ago
      This could works for stores, not for apks. But I believe Epic would be happy to appear on that list anyway. That said, isn’t Epic Store (or what its name is) on PlayStore already? Unable check due to network issues.
- kyriakos 3y ago
  It's literally 2 clicks
  - kevincox 3y ago
    Yeah, what Android has seems like a very reasonable balance of protecting users who don't know better vs usability. I do have complaints about Google embedding itself and privileging its apps in Android but difficulty of sideloading is not one of them.
  - ThatPlayer 3y ago
    One problem is that until recently (Android 13) it's two clicks for every app every update. Google Play Store gets to update apps in the background, but that's impossible with F-Droid (without rooting). If I want to update 10 apps on F-Droid, that's a prompt for each one.
    - kyriakos 3y ago
      Only the first app you side load requires to accept allowing non play store apps. I'm not sure about fdroid but samsung store updates are seamless same as play store.
      - ThatPlayer 3y ago
        It still requires a button to bring up the prompt. It would be a worse user experience to prompt the user without any warning. Compared to Google being able to do it all in the background. Samsung store can do it as it's bundled with the Samsung phone and installed as a system application that gets the same permissions as Google Play Store. A user can't give these permissions to a user installed app store without turning it into a system application, which isn't possible without root. For example if I tried to install Samsung's store on my Pixel. F-droid is able to do it if you have root: https://gitlab.com/fdroid/privileged-extension/ https://gitlab.com/fdroid/privileged-extension/
oh_sigh 3y ago
Compare the ease of using a pre-bundled Play Store with one click install, versus having to respond to multiple prompts saying "Yes, I know that doing this can give hackers all my data and steal my bank account"
- flashback2199 3y ago
  So like the warning messages macOS and windows show when you install an app you downloaded from the internet?
  - enragedcacti 3y ago
    Not really, Windows and Mac only show warnings for unsigned applications, and the policies for signing don't include revenue sharing with Microsoft or Apple. Android of course has an app signing system which could be used the same way to verify the authenticity of third party app downloads, but Google chooses not to protect users in that situation the way that Microsoft or Apple do. They do have Google Play Protect which scans all apps regardless of installation source but as far as I'm aware they don't go out of their way to confirm to the user that they are installing the real Epic Games Store.
- lawlessone 3y ago
  It's even worse on Huawei devices. You get all their warnings and the google warnings. From memory I had to start an unlock process and then wait two weeks to actually be allowed to unlock it. The two week wait is part of the process for "security reasons" but really it's just because they know not everyone will persist through it.
  - g-b-r 3y ago
    Last I heard even the two-weeks process has been removed, you can't unlock the bootloader on Huawei devices anymore ops no it looks like they found some workarounds (https://www.xda-developers.com/huawei-honor-bootloader-unlock-potatonv/ https://www.xda-developers.com/huawei-honor-bootloader-unloc...)
henryfjordan 3y ago
You don't need to be a perfect monopoly for antitrust laws to apply to you in the US. You just need to be in a "dominant position" in the relevant market. Even if Google allows side-loading, so long as 95% of users go through the app store they need to take care not to abuse that position.
- flashback2199 3y ago
  That makes even less sense because everywhere I look I see not-total-monopolies abusing their position every day

loceng 3y ago

One of the main arguments will be that Google doesn't make it easy enough to sideload apps, purposefully, adding friction as a dark pattern.

lawlessone 3y ago
Doing this on Android is still trivial compared to doing it on iOS. Doesn't the US use "case law"? And would the verdict in the iOS case set the precedent here? Saying that, Apple was ordered to do some other things they don't like so maybe that's what they want applied to Google?
- leereeves 3y ago
  I don't think the Apple case sets a precedent, because that court didn't say that Apple wasn't a monopolist. > “The court does not find that it is impossible; only that Epic Games failed in its burden to demonstrate Apple is an illegal monopolist,” [U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers] wrote. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/10/apple-epic-decision-judge-market-monopoly/?itid=lk_inline_manual_16 https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/10/apple-e...
  - singleshot_ 3y ago
    Precedent is not set by a district court, but through the appeals process.
wruza 3y ago
How exactly could Google improve the experience?
- lawlessone 3y ago
  Does windows still have to show that menu when you install of alternative browsers? Maybe like that?
  - wruza 3y ago
    This could works for stores, not for apks. But I believe Epic would be happy to appear on that list anyway. That said, isn’t Epic Store (or what its name is) on PlayStore already? Unable check due to network issues.
kyriakos 3y ago
It's literally 2 clicks
- kevincox 3y ago
  Yeah, what Android has seems like a very reasonable balance of protecting users who don't know better vs usability. I do have complaints about Google embedding itself and privileging its apps in Android but difficulty of sideloading is not one of them.
- ThatPlayer 3y ago
  One problem is that until recently (Android 13) it's two clicks for every app every update. Google Play Store gets to update apps in the background, but that's impossible with F-Droid (without rooting). If I want to update 10 apps on F-Droid, that's a prompt for each one.
  - kyriakos 3y ago
    Only the first app you side load requires to accept allowing non play store apps. I'm not sure about fdroid but samsung store updates are seamless same as play store.
    - ThatPlayer 3y ago
      It still requires a button to bring up the prompt. It would be a worse user experience to prompt the user without any warning. Compared to Google being able to do it all in the background. Samsung store can do it as it's bundled with the Samsung phone and installed as a system application that gets the same permissions as Google Play Store. A user can't give these permissions to a user installed app store without turning it into a system application, which isn't possible without root. For example if I tried to install Samsung's store on my Pixel. F-droid is able to do it if you have root: https://gitlab.com/fdroid/privileged-extension/ https://gitlab.com/fdroid/privileged-extension/

oh_sigh 3y ago

Compare the ease of using a pre-bundled Play Store with one click install, versus having to respond to multiple prompts saying "Yes, I know that doing this can give hackers all my data and steal my bank account"

flashback2199 3y ago
So like the warning messages macOS and windows show when you install an app you downloaded from the internet?
- enragedcacti 3y ago
  Not really, Windows and Mac only show warnings for unsigned applications, and the policies for signing don't include revenue sharing with Microsoft or Apple. Android of course has an app signing system which could be used the same way to verify the authenticity of third party app downloads, but Google chooses not to protect users in that situation the way that Microsoft or Apple do. They do have Google Play Protect which scans all apps regardless of installation source but as far as I'm aware they don't go out of their way to confirm to the user that they are installing the real Epic Games Store.
lawlessone 3y ago
It's even worse on Huawei devices. You get all their warnings and the google warnings. From memory I had to start an unlock process and then wait two weeks to actually be allowed to unlock it. The two week wait is part of the process for "security reasons" but really it's just because they know not everyone will persist through it.
- g-b-r 3y ago
  Last I heard even the two-weeks process has been removed, you can't unlock the bootloader on Huawei devices anymore ops no it looks like they found some workarounds (https://www.xda-developers.com/huawei-honor-bootloader-unlock-potatonv/ https://www.xda-developers.com/huawei-honor-bootloader-unloc...)

henryfjordan 3y ago

You don't need to be a perfect monopoly for antitrust laws to apply to you in the US. You just need to be in a "dominant position" in the relevant market. Even if Google allows side-loading, so long as 95% of users go through the app store they need to take care not to abuse that position.

flashback2199 3y ago
That makes even less sense because everywhere I look I see not-total-monopolies abusing their position every day