5 ms·

Yet its there today and still one of the more reliable packaging system and distro you can find.

lmm 3y ago
I don't know anyone who uses Debian and actually sticks with their packaged apps. The most important programs they're using on their computers will be installed either from third-party repositories, or some other tool (whether that's snap/flatpak/nix/etc., or a language-specific package manager like NPM), or built from source themselves, because Debian's "native" packaged versions of everything are chronically out of date.
- worksonmine 3y ago
  I daily drive Debian stable and the few packages that aren't from the repositories are by choice. My most important programs are Neovim, Alacritty (for vim keybindings) and Firefox. Before Bookworm I had to build Alacritty from source but that's it and these days they're an apt install away. I build dwm and dmenu as well but they exist in the repos if I didn't like patching them. If I go outside the repositories that's a choice, and I think hard if I really need it on my system, or maybe a VM for isolation makes more sense if I don't trust the developer. If one needs bleeding edge everything maybe Debian isn't the right choice. Why does everything always have to cater to the masses? Let Debian be boring for those of us who love it for what it is.
  - frankjr 3y ago
    > Neovim You're missing almost 1.5 years of bug fixes then (Bookworm+Unstable 0.7.2, Jun 26, 2022; Neovim stable 0.9.4, Oct 9, 2023). LSP support in particular has gotten much better in the meantime. > If one needs bleeding edge everything maybe Debian isn't the right choice. Stable versions are not bleeding edge.
    - worksonmine 3y ago
      > You're missing almost 1.5 years of bug fixes the No I'm not, I used vanilla vim without LSP until Bram (R.I.P) decided to write another vimscript, too much NIH for my taste. I'm fine with what I use and have my workflow. I'm considering trying out how Flatpaks work for me for the isolation though. I do use Docker and even the occasional VM for complex environments and don't notice any difference in my use. > Stable versions are not bleeding edge Bleeding edge as in latest features.
- vehemenz 3y ago
  I use Debian versions of everything on my web server. I guess this means our anecdotes cancel out.
- Roark66 3y ago
  Depends what do you consider "most important". For me the most important is the kernel, the xorg, the WM, the infrastructure so to speak. And then if I run an app image on top with let's say Freecad, I don't mind. I'd have run it anyway, because I want the latest software without of the disadvantages of keeping my entire distro rolling. Also I make use of running software in docker a lot.
  - lmm 3y ago
    > For me the most important is the kernel, the xorg, the WM, the infrastructure so to speak. And then if I run an app image on top with let's say Freecad, I don't mind. The way I see it Freecad - the thing that you're actually doing something with on the computer - is the point, the kernel and all the rest of it are just there to support that. > Also I make use of running software in docker a lot. Yeah, I didn't put it in my list but that's another one I see a lot.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > I don't know anyone who uses Debian and actually sticks with their packaged apps. Many people in corporate, because that removes a lot of noise in "compliance" audits - show them that you have the main and security repository enabled and do regular update checks and installs, and that's it. For me, the exception is Docker and Kubernetes, but that's easily explainable to auditors as a business need.
  - lmm 3y ago
    > For me, the exception is Docker and Kubernetes... business need. Which I think proves my point.
- huggingmouth 3y ago
  I use debian for work and never install anything outside their official repos unless it's not packaged or is unmaintained. Debian's stability is legendary and well deserved.
  - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
    Maybe for your specific use - yes. And maybe your place of work only runs stable distributions for many years. But I have a feeling for the vast majority of people this is why snap was invented, to not be stuck on old software for a few years.
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      The comment you responded to has lots of siblings.
      - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
        I am not sure what you mean, but when I responded it was a single commet, no replies.
        bee_rider 3y ago
        Siblings, as in comments at the same level in the comment tree. A bunch of other people have responded to the original comment starting with: > I don't know anyone who uses Debian and actually sticks with their packaged apps. With various indications that they more or less actually do stick to the packaged apps.
        ExoticPearTree 3y ago
        Oh, you could have said so. Anyway, I for one don’t think that staying with for example nginx for two years on the same version is a good idea. Even if they fix security issues, you still miss out on features. And this is for lots of other packages.
- wolletd 3y ago
  Especially for Linux, not everything is a desktop system. I have Debian installations running on embedded machines in the ten thousands. Besides our custom kernel modules and business applications, Debian has everything these systems need and more. I find it way cooler to use Debian on embedded systems rather than some buildroot, because it's a widely available and reproducible environment and debugging and development tools are an "apt install" away.
  - lmm 3y ago
    > Besides our custom kernel modules and business applications, Debian has everything these systems need and more. The thing is that even in embedded, people are starting to see the value of using libraries when writing those business applications, and they end up being the same libraries that parts of the base system will use. So either you need to align how the OS approaches those libraries with how the developer wants to, or you need a user-friendly way to have OS-managed versions and developer-managed versions coexist. Current Debian does neither of those things.
- hnfong 3y ago
  That's the tradeoff Debian users consciously make. And it's a good one IMHO. Not sure why you make it sound like a bad thing. For the stuff that you really _need_ to have the latest version, you have options to install it yourself. For the rest of the system, if you don't care about having the latest updates, you get a relatively stable system that doesn't potentially change every other week. Of course some people do prefer having the whole system on the bleeding edge -- in which case Debian is obviously not for them, and there are many other distributions that cater to their needs. But the people who use Debian made a conscious choice to keep most of the system "stable" except for the important programs that they know well enough to "maintain" the latest versions themselves.
  - lmm 3y ago
    > For the stuff that you really _need_ to have the latest version, you have options to install it yourself. For the rest of the system, if you don't care about having the latest updates, you get a relatively stable system that doesn't potentially change every other week. Those options exist, but Debian doesn't really support or steer people towards them. IMO their approach compares pretty poorly to e.g. FreeBSD where you have an explicit packages/ports split and support for using ports. (E.g. installing a newer version of an application on Debian is relatively easy, but if that application needs a library then it becomes quite hard, to the point that people resort to vendoring or static builds in one form or another)
- binkHN 3y ago
  This is on point for Stable releases of Debian and is working as intended. However, there are many of us that run the Testing or Unstable releases of Debian. While this might not be the ideal way to run Debian, it is a way to run Debian with far more modern packages. While it's not a rolling release like other distributions, it is slightly closer to to this with, perhaps, slightly less risk compared to a rolling release.

lmm 3y ago

I don't know anyone who uses Debian and actually sticks with their packaged apps. The most important programs they're using on their computers will be installed either from third-party repositories, or some other tool (whether that's snap/flatpak/nix/etc., or a language-specific package manager like NPM), or built from source themselves, because Debian's "native" packaged versions of everything are chronically out of date.

worksonmine 3y ago
I daily drive Debian stable and the few packages that aren't from the repositories are by choice. My most important programs are Neovim, Alacritty (for vim keybindings) and Firefox. Before Bookworm I had to build Alacritty from source but that's it and these days they're an apt install away. I build dwm and dmenu as well but they exist in the repos if I didn't like patching them. If I go outside the repositories that's a choice, and I think hard if I really need it on my system, or maybe a VM for isolation makes more sense if I don't trust the developer. If one needs bleeding edge everything maybe Debian isn't the right choice. Why does everything always have to cater to the masses? Let Debian be boring for those of us who love it for what it is.
- frankjr 3y ago
  > Neovim You're missing almost 1.5 years of bug fixes then (Bookworm+Unstable 0.7.2, Jun 26, 2022; Neovim stable 0.9.4, Oct 9, 2023). LSP support in particular has gotten much better in the meantime. > If one needs bleeding edge everything maybe Debian isn't the right choice. Stable versions are not bleeding edge.
  - worksonmine 3y ago
    > You're missing almost 1.5 years of bug fixes the No I'm not, I used vanilla vim without LSP until Bram (R.I.P) decided to write another vimscript, too much NIH for my taste. I'm fine with what I use and have my workflow. I'm considering trying out how Flatpaks work for me for the isolation though. I do use Docker and even the occasional VM for complex environments and don't notice any difference in my use. > Stable versions are not bleeding edge Bleeding edge as in latest features.
vehemenz 3y ago
I use Debian versions of everything on my web server. I guess this means our anecdotes cancel out.
Roark66 3y ago
Depends what do you consider "most important". For me the most important is the kernel, the xorg, the WM, the infrastructure so to speak. And then if I run an app image on top with let's say Freecad, I don't mind. I'd have run it anyway, because I want the latest software without of the disadvantages of keeping my entire distro rolling. Also I make use of running software in docker a lot.
- lmm 3y ago
  > For me the most important is the kernel, the xorg, the WM, the infrastructure so to speak. And then if I run an app image on top with let's say Freecad, I don't mind. The way I see it Freecad - the thing that you're actually doing something with on the computer - is the point, the kernel and all the rest of it are just there to support that. > Also I make use of running software in docker a lot. Yeah, I didn't put it in my list but that's another one I see a lot.
mschuster91 3y ago
> I don't know anyone who uses Debian and actually sticks with their packaged apps. Many people in corporate, because that removes a lot of noise in "compliance" audits - show them that you have the main and security repository enabled and do regular update checks and installs, and that's it. For me, the exception is Docker and Kubernetes, but that's easily explainable to auditors as a business need.
- lmm 3y ago
  > For me, the exception is Docker and Kubernetes... business need. Which I think proves my point.
huggingmouth 3y ago
I use debian for work and never install anything outside their official repos unless it's not packaged or is unmaintained. Debian's stability is legendary and well deserved.
- ExoticPearTree 3y ago
  Maybe for your specific use - yes. And maybe your place of work only runs stable distributions for many years. But I have a feeling for the vast majority of people this is why snap was invented, to not be stuck on old software for a few years.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    The comment you responded to has lots of siblings.
    - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
      I am not sure what you mean, but when I responded it was a single commet, no replies.
      - bee_rider 3y ago
        Siblings, as in comments at the same level in the comment tree. A bunch of other people have responded to the original comment starting with: > I don't know anyone who uses Debian and actually sticks with their packaged apps. With various indications that they more or less actually do stick to the packaged apps.
        ExoticPearTree 3y ago
        Oh, you could have said so. Anyway, I for one don’t think that staying with for example nginx for two years on the same version is a good idea. Even if they fix security issues, you still miss out on features. And this is for lots of other packages.
wolletd 3y ago
Especially for Linux, not everything is a desktop system. I have Debian installations running on embedded machines in the ten thousands. Besides our custom kernel modules and business applications, Debian has everything these systems need and more. I find it way cooler to use Debian on embedded systems rather than some buildroot, because it's a widely available and reproducible environment and debugging and development tools are an "apt install" away.
- lmm 3y ago
  > Besides our custom kernel modules and business applications, Debian has everything these systems need and more. The thing is that even in embedded, people are starting to see the value of using libraries when writing those business applications, and they end up being the same libraries that parts of the base system will use. So either you need to align how the OS approaches those libraries with how the developer wants to, or you need a user-friendly way to have OS-managed versions and developer-managed versions coexist. Current Debian does neither of those things.
hnfong 3y ago
That's the tradeoff Debian users consciously make. And it's a good one IMHO. Not sure why you make it sound like a bad thing. For the stuff that you really _need_ to have the latest version, you have options to install it yourself. For the rest of the system, if you don't care about having the latest updates, you get a relatively stable system that doesn't potentially change every other week. Of course some people do prefer having the whole system on the bleeding edge -- in which case Debian is obviously not for them, and there are many other distributions that cater to their needs. But the people who use Debian made a conscious choice to keep most of the system "stable" except for the important programs that they know well enough to "maintain" the latest versions themselves.
- lmm 3y ago
  > For the stuff that you really _need_ to have the latest version, you have options to install it yourself. For the rest of the system, if you don't care about having the latest updates, you get a relatively stable system that doesn't potentially change every other week. Those options exist, but Debian doesn't really support or steer people towards them. IMO their approach compares pretty poorly to e.g. FreeBSD where you have an explicit packages/ports split and support for using ports. (E.g. installing a newer version of an application on Debian is relatively easy, but if that application needs a library then it becomes quite hard, to the point that people resort to vendoring or static builds in one form or another)
binkHN 3y ago
This is on point for Stable releases of Debian and is working as intended. However, there are many of us that run the Testing or Unstable releases of Debian. While this might not be the ideal way to run Debian, it is a way to run Debian with far more modern packages. While it's not a rolling release like other distributions, it is slightly closer to to this with, perhaps, slightly less risk compared to a rolling release.