4 ms·

> police have no interest whatsoever in enforcing the dedicated rights of way Why is this stated like an unbreakable physical law? They are employees like any

> police have no interest whatsoever in enforcing the dedicated rights of way Why is this stated like an unbreakable physical law? They are employees like any other, I'm sure there are ways to incentivize effective job performance.

woodruffw 3y ago
I don't know if you live in NY or not, but the these are the facts on the ground: * When it comes to traffic enforcement, the NYPD has effectively been on a silent strike for the last 3 years. * It's virtually impossible for the city to assert greater civilian control over the NYPD, in a large part because the NYPD simply ignores any transparency or accountability laws that are meant to reign it in. Punishing them for ignoring the laws is also virtually impossible, because it would require the city's DA's to prosecute the force they currently rely on. > I'm sure there are ways to incentivize effective job performance. The best incentive here would be initiating some form of civil liability for the NYPD, or otherwise ensuring that the NYPD cannot rely on the city's general budget to pay for their malfeasance. That's a political non-starter, so maybe just curtailing their overtime. Longer term, the NYPD needs to lose its special civil service status and require, like every other NYC agency, that its employees live in the city they police. This more than anything else is the most broken incentive around traffic enforcement: the majority of NYC cops live outside of the city and commute by car in[1], meaning that they simply do not care about the basic livability of the neighborhoods they police. This is manifest in the rampant illegal parking and defaced license plates around every NYPD precinct[2]. [1]: https://nypost.com/2023/06/03/more-nypd-officers-are-opting-to-live-outside-nyc/ https://nypost.com/2023/06/03/more-nypd-officers-are-opting-... [2]: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/03/nypds-illegal-parking-needs-to-be-curbed.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/03/nypds-illegal-parkin...
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Most every other city is having the same problem. For some reason, police aren’t enforcing laws due to whatever reason (staffing shortage, morale problems, union meddling, etc…).
  - tunesmith 3y ago
    I can't think of a solution other than a massive increase in police funding. Maybe it could be conditioned on being purely for higher salaries rather than for military weapons. It'd also help if it was tied to prohibiting the disqualification of applicants with high IQs. More generally, I think it's weird how we tend to hear more about shortages in all sorts of key industries these days. Medical professionals, police, teachers. Well, it seems it was always true for teachers. But I'm under this impression it used to be easier to have a self-sustaining mix of professions in a geographical area, without trying to regulate it all in place. Maybe this is again all going back to the wealth gap and housing costs.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Long term, higher productivity is inevitable. That means more cameras on buses identifying bus lane violations, and cameras in random places identifying obscured plates, no plates, or stolen plates. Ya, we have this tech already, it’s used in some countries…but the USA will be slower to adopt it (but it’s inevitable). People’s labor is just getting too dear, and so we need to up productivity to compensate. For police, this could also be a win against police abuse/corruption, since the machines are unlikely to at least abuse their power.
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      I don’t think funding is the issue here: a junior NYPD cop makes more than the average NYC resident before overtime[1], and gets relatively plum benefits while doing so. Like most forces, they’re also pensioned at 20 years. The issue here is residency and interest: the NYPD is excluded from ordinary civil service requirements, meaning that they aren’t required to live in the city they police. The majority of them choose not to, meaning that the city’s law enforcement is largely made up of people driving their cars into the city and treating as an “outside” place, rather than their home. Forcing them to live in the city wouldn’t fix everything about the NYPD, but I suspect we’d see less petty infringement of traffic laws by the NYPD themselves. [1]: https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-benefits.page https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-ben...
  - 3y ago
- jrockway 3y ago
  I suppose the MTA can always handle traffic enforcement. That's how congesting charging is going to work. At this point, I'm convinced that most reckless driving you see in the city is the NYPD on their way to work. (Never forget this one: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/03/30/dept-of-investigation-says-cops-did-harass-311-callers-confirming-streetsblog-account https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/03/30/dept-of-investigation.... Detective texted death threats to 311 callers, from his own number, for reporting illegal parking.) (I don't choose the MTA because I think they're a remarkably efficient organization. They just happen to already be gearing up to do it, and are outside the reach of NYC politics, for better or for worse.) I think that we can reform the NYPD with the right mayor. Eric Adams is obviously Not It. I am not sure there is a single viewpoint he has that justifies the "D" next to his name. Fortunately, it appears he is now tied up in some federal campaign finance investigation that will hopefully end with him not being the mayor anymore. (A few weeks ago, he showed up at the DOT office and ranted about how "more bike lanes isn't going to be my legacy". https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/11/01/adams-dismisses-bus-bike-lane-mile-requirements-at-dot-meeting https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/11/01/adams-dismisses-bus-b... He's right. All of his rat violations and campaign finance shenanigans will be his legacy. I would have picked the bike lanes.)

woodruffw 3y ago

I don't know if you live in NY or not, but the these are the facts on the ground: * When it comes to traffic enforcement, the NYPD has effectively been on a silent strike for the last 3 years. * It's virtually impossible for the city to assert greater civilian control over the NYPD, in a large part because the NYPD simply ignores any transparency or accountability laws that are meant to reign it in. Punishing them for ignoring the laws is also virtually impossible, because it would require the city's DA's to prosecute the force they currently rely on. > I'm sure there are ways to incentivize effective job performance. The best incentive here would be initiating some form of civil liability for the NYPD, or otherwise ensuring that the NYPD cannot rely on the city's general budget to pay for their malfeasance. That's a political non-starter, so maybe just curtailing their overtime. Longer term, the NYPD needs to lose its special civil service status and require, like every other NYC agency, that its employees live in the city they police. This more than anything else is the most broken incentive around traffic enforcement: the majority of NYC cops live outside of the city and commute by car in[1], meaning that they simply do not care about the basic livability of the neighborhoods they police. This is manifest in the rampant illegal parking and defaced license plates around every NYPD precinct[2]. [1]: https://nypost.com/2023/06/03/more-nypd-officers-are-opting-to-live-outside-nyc/ https://nypost.com/2023/06/03/more-nypd-officers-are-opting-... [2]: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/03/nypds-illegal-parking-needs-to-be-curbed.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/03/nypds-illegal-parkin...

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Most every other city is having the same problem. For some reason, police aren’t enforcing laws due to whatever reason (staffing shortage, morale problems, union meddling, etc…).
- tunesmith 3y ago
  I can't think of a solution other than a massive increase in police funding. Maybe it could be conditioned on being purely for higher salaries rather than for military weapons. It'd also help if it was tied to prohibiting the disqualification of applicants with high IQs. More generally, I think it's weird how we tend to hear more about shortages in all sorts of key industries these days. Medical professionals, police, teachers. Well, it seems it was always true for teachers. But I'm under this impression it used to be easier to have a self-sustaining mix of professions in a geographical area, without trying to regulate it all in place. Maybe this is again all going back to the wealth gap and housing costs.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Long term, higher productivity is inevitable. That means more cameras on buses identifying bus lane violations, and cameras in random places identifying obscured plates, no plates, or stolen plates. Ya, we have this tech already, it’s used in some countries…but the USA will be slower to adopt it (but it’s inevitable). People’s labor is just getting too dear, and so we need to up productivity to compensate. For police, this could also be a win against police abuse/corruption, since the machines are unlikely to at least abuse their power.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    I don’t think funding is the issue here: a junior NYPD cop makes more than the average NYC resident before overtime[1], and gets relatively plum benefits while doing so. Like most forces, they’re also pensioned at 20 years. The issue here is residency and interest: the NYPD is excluded from ordinary civil service requirements, meaning that they aren’t required to live in the city they police. The majority of them choose not to, meaning that the city’s law enforcement is largely made up of people driving their cars into the city and treating as an “outside” place, rather than their home. Forcing them to live in the city wouldn’t fix everything about the NYPD, but I suspect we’d see less petty infringement of traffic laws by the NYPD themselves. [1]: https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-benefits.page https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-ben...
- 3y ago
jrockway 3y ago
I suppose the MTA can always handle traffic enforcement. That's how congesting charging is going to work. At this point, I'm convinced that most reckless driving you see in the city is the NYPD on their way to work. (Never forget this one: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/03/30/dept-of-investigation-says-cops-did-harass-311-callers-confirming-streetsblog-account https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/03/30/dept-of-investigation.... Detective texted death threats to 311 callers, from his own number, for reporting illegal parking.) (I don't choose the MTA because I think they're a remarkably efficient organization. They just happen to already be gearing up to do it, and are outside the reach of NYC politics, for better or for worse.) I think that we can reform the NYPD with the right mayor. Eric Adams is obviously Not It. I am not sure there is a single viewpoint he has that justifies the "D" next to his name. Fortunately, it appears he is now tied up in some federal campaign finance investigation that will hopefully end with him not being the mayor anymore. (A few weeks ago, he showed up at the DOT office and ranted about how "more bike lanes isn't going to be my legacy". https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/11/01/adams-dismisses-bus-bike-lane-mile-requirements-at-dot-meeting https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/11/01/adams-dismisses-bus-b... He's right. All of his rat violations and campaign finance shenanigans will be his legacy. I would have picked the bike lanes.)