5 ms·

Diane Van Deren is an ultra runner who had part of her brain removed to treat her seizures. It also affected her ability to perceive time and to read maps. She

by js2 3y ago

Diane Van Deren is an ultra runner who had part of her brain removed to treat her seizures. It also affected her ability to perceive time and to read maps. She originally started running to self-treat her seizures, but eventually running no longer staved them off. Oddly, not being able to perceive time may have benefitted her running: > Dr. Gerber credits her endurance in part to her brain limitations. He says runners who can better track time and map where they are can be distracted by the details. But Van Deren has a special facility for what he calls “flow” that lets her transcend the anguish of running long. “It’s a mental state,” Gerber says. “You become enmeshed in what you’re doing. It’s almost Zen. She can run for hours and not know how long she’s been going.” https://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/a21763474/fixing-dianes-brain/ https://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/a21763474/fixin... I first heard about her on Radiolab: https://radiolab.org/podcast/122291-in-running https://radiolab.org/podcast/122291-in-running

passion__desire 3y ago
My genius friend in college could naturally focus so intensely that he didn't realise that there was electric short circuit near his desk.
abrookewood 3y ago
There's a book by Oliver Sacks that covers people affected by strange neurological disorders and it is fascinating [0]. I can't recall any of them being viewed in a positive light, but it's still worth a read. [0]https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/63697.The_Man_Who_Mistook_His_Wife_for_a_Hat_and_Other_Clinical_Tales https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/63697.The_Man_Who_Mistoo...
- dendrite9 3y ago
  That book helped someone I know he was mostly face blind. Recently I was listening to a discussion where someone was trying to explain her synesthesia about time to a bunch of people who didn't experience that. I found it really hard to wrap my head around, but there is a picture in this article of how one person visualizes time over the course of a year. The idea is just so far from what I think of as normal that it is difficult to really grasp. "I thought everyone thought like I did, says Holly Branigan, also a scientist at Edinburgh University, and someone with time-space synaesthesia. "I found out when I attended a talk in the department that Julia was giving. She said that some synaesthetes can see time. And I thought, 'Oh my god, that means I've got synaesthesia'." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8248589.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8248589.stm
  - HenrikB 3y ago
    That type of synesthesia is referred to as Number Forms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_form). I read a long time ago that it's quite common, like 1 in 7 people got it. Some people don't even know they have it. I always had it as far as I can recall, but it wasn't until my mid 20s, when I stumbled upon a picture, that I reflected on it and the fact that not everyone sees number forms.
    - vctrnk 3y ago
      Oh wow. Count me in on the I didn't know I had that! camp. When younger I struggled horribly with ALL things math, and to this day still do. OTOH I've always had a knack for DIY involving measurements: lenghts, rythms, quantities, sizes, you name it. I just invoke my own "dynamic mind ruler" for the task at hand and usually get it right 1st try. Cooking something new? I intuitively know the proper amount of ingredients and spices. Doing work in a friend's car? That nut looks like a 3/4 and that one a 11/16, and who the heck put a 11mm in place of a 7/16?? Incidentally, the whole concept of Time always flows from right-to-left to me. 1000BC is waaay to the right, and 2030AC is just a stone throw away to the left. Now I wonder if it's something only I perceive that way, or everyone does.
      - precompute 3y ago
        Are you left-handed?
  - tveita 3y ago
    Somewhat related, a survey of how Norwegian people visualize time: https://nrkbeta.no/2018/01/01/this-is-what-the-year-actually-looks-like/ https://nrkbeta.no/2018/01/01/this-is-what-the-year-actually...
    - Aeolun 3y ago
      This almost caused me an existential time crisis until I drew out my own year and realized it’s still as I remember. It just gets a bit smeared out in my head.
- causi 3y ago
  One of the more terrifying books ever written, if nothing else for the fact it opens one to the possibility we may all have such disorders on a species-wide level. What if there are things none of us allow ourselves to perceive?
  - coldtea 3y ago
    How would that be terrifying? After learning it, it would still be the same exact world as was before we learned about it.
    - mistermann 3y ago
      That would require "learning it" to have zero persistence in any form would it not? How might one know such a thing?
      - coldtea 3y ago
        Not sure what you're asking. What is "that" which would require "'learning it' to have zero persistence in any form'"? What I meant is, even if we all learn that everybody in the world has "such disorders" and that "there are things none of us allow ourselves to perceive", what would the objective change be to make this "teriffying"? "There's a killer out to get you" or "you have X disease which will have those symptoms" is terrifying. "There are things that you don't know, and that you as a species can't even perceive" is at best amusing. This sudden knowledge doesn't change anything that's happening or makes anything that happened before more frightening, does it?
        mistermann 3y ago
        >>>> One of the more terrifying books ever written, if nothing else for the fact it opens one to the possibility we may all have such disorders on a species-wide level. What if there are things none of us allow ourselves to perceive? >>> After learning it, it would still be the same exact world as was before we learned about it. >> That would require "learning it" to have zero persistence in any form would it not? How might one know such a thing? > Not sure what you're asking. What is "that" which would require "'learning it' to have zero persistence in any form'"? "That" = "it would still be the same exact world (as was before we learned about it)". World-State: 1 World-Event: at least one human becomes open to the possibility that we may all have such disorders on a species-wide level, that there may be things none of us allow ourselves to perceive. (And once an idea exists in one person's mind, they may act upon it at some point in the future.) World-State: 2 Are the two states identical? I would think not. > What I meant is, even if we all learn that everybody in the world has "such disorders" and that "there are things none of us allow ourselves to perceive", what would the objective change be to make this "teriffying"? To me, it can be "terrifying" to see risk that others cannot or, or refuse to try to see. Scientists and "scientific thinkers" often express fear of the quantity of "deniers" that don't agree with their risk assessments, and get even more terrified when the "deniers" refuse to listen to reason. Similarly, people like me feel similarly when it is the scientists who behave the same. > "There are things that you don't know, and that you as a species can't even perceive" is at best amusing. This is a consequence of the epistemic norms (lazy, colloquial, bad, etc) of the culture you grew up in: under strict epistemology (philosophical epistemology vs scientific epistemology), risk exists regardless of your personal opinion on it. Of course, this "is" "pedantic", so no expectation for you to take it seriously...though if my memory serves you are usually the one going against the grain here on HN, so perhaps there's a chance. :)
- vjerancrnjak 3y ago
  Another book that is very illuminating is "My Stroke of Insight" by Jill Bolte Taylor. Reading the brain stroke description can give non-experiential understanding of various Zen koans, including the non-verbal one where Buddha simply holds up a flower and it becomes entirely understandable to Mahakasyapa. It also points to the natural tendency of human beings to attribute profoundness or spirituality to various forms of brain malfunction. The author does it in the later chapters of the book.
  - electrondood 3y ago
    LSD as well, and simply stopping the mind and experiencing the senses directly, without interpretation.
- ProllyInfamous 3y ago
  As long as we're discussing Dr. Sacks, I just read his short story (part of same-titled book) "An Anthropologist on Mars." The titles derive from Dr. Grandin Temple's perception of being high-functioning autist in academia/husbandry; she is best-known for re-designing slaughterhouse shutes, able to "see" as animals do. Her entire story left me, a spectrum-kiddo, grasping for what "real" even is. The thing that struck me as her "most unhuman" aspect [but with which I can relate, self-inflictedly]: Dr. Grandin doesn't understand most human social customs, so from a young age vowed to never enter into a romantic relationship. She considers this entirely a waste of time, and lives to work. Highly recommend Dr. Sacks many books/collections, may he RIP: [I'm just a fleshbag]: Man Who Mistook Wife for Hat [LGB / growing up]: Uncle Tungsten [Parkinsonianisms]: Awakenings
  - avisser 3y ago
    Her name is Temple Grandin
dclowd9901 3y ago
I believe this. I never run so well as I do when I just look down about 10 feet in front of me and let my legs move as much on their own as possible.
mewpmewp2 3y ago
Flow happens to at least a lot of runners to be fair though. At certain distance when I'm running, it becomes very pleasurable, like you are above everything.
- GlumWoodpecker 3y ago
  Also known as "runner's high": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurobiological_effects_of_physical_exercise#Euphoria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurobiological_effects_of_phy...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- js2 3y ago
  I've run over two dozen marathons, twice run 100 miles, and also run timed races of 24 hours and 12 hours (multiple times). I'm a decent runner, having run the Boston Marathon 5 times. I've never really experienced anything like what they're describing with Diane Van Deren. I'm not sure I've ever really experienced what folks refer to as the runner's high either. At best, I can say that there are times that my running is as effortless as walking, even when running at a fairly decent clip. During those effortless times, I've gotten lost in thought or in conversation with another runner, but no differently than I'd get lost in thought or conversation during other activities. I've never experienced any sense of euphoria when running. Joy and tears and emotional overload at the end of Boston sure, but not what I'd call euphoria. That runner's high sounds great though, for those who do experience it. :-)
  - mewpmewp2 3y ago
    It usually happens to me at around 8km. I get inspiring thoughts, feel like I can achieve anything and at this point I would definitely not want to stop running. Maybe it could be similar to ADHD medicine then. You have ran some very impressive distances though.
elAhmo 3y ago
This was such a great listen, I came here to comment this and was glad that it was already here. It is amazing to realise that many of the physical limitations we have are coming from the brain.
ekanes 3y ago
Wow. Interesting connection between "trouble perceiving time" (negative) and "flow state" (usually positive). People with ADHD also have those two traits, perhaps giving further evidence that they come as a package. Across the broader population, I wonder if one could increase flow state access by removing reminders of time. Casinos do this, I think.
picadores 3y ago
I distinctly remember a HN post, were the father of the poster had the same problem. Meaning he would sometimes "crash" and just stand there, forgetting about the world everything - often for hours if nobody "interrupted".
avisser 3y ago
Towards the end of her life my grandmother had a few small strokes. After one, I clearly remember her loosing her pathfinding ability. She became lost in her 4 room basement, unable to find the stairs. At her worst, she seemingly got lost in her 5'x8' bathroom. I remember her just continuing to turn in place and then dismiss each direction as being the wrong way to proceed.
- sizzle 3y ago
  After seeing how hard it was to walk after my dad’s stroke I’ll never buy a 2 story home when I’m entering old age. It’s just so dangerous and easy to fall and never recover.

by js2 3y ago

passion__desire 3y ago

My genius friend in college could naturally focus so intensely that he didn't realise that there was electric short circuit near his desk.

abrookewood 3y ago

There's a book by Oliver Sacks that covers people affected by strange neurological disorders and it is fascinating [0]. I can't recall any of them being viewed in a positive light, but it's still worth a read. [0]https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/63697.The_Man_Who_Mistook_His_Wife_for_a_Hat_and_Other_Clinical_Tales https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/63697.The_Man_Who_Mistoo...

dendrite9 3y ago
That book helped someone I know he was mostly face blind. Recently I was listening to a discussion where someone was trying to explain her synesthesia about time to a bunch of people who didn't experience that. I found it really hard to wrap my head around, but there is a picture in this article of how one person visualizes time over the course of a year. The idea is just so far from what I think of as normal that it is difficult to really grasp. "I thought everyone thought like I did, says Holly Branigan, also a scientist at Edinburgh University, and someone with time-space synaesthesia. "I found out when I attended a talk in the department that Julia was giving. She said that some synaesthetes can see time. And I thought, 'Oh my god, that means I've got synaesthesia'." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8248589.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8248589.stm
- HenrikB 3y ago
  That type of synesthesia is referred to as Number Forms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_form). I read a long time ago that it's quite common, like 1 in 7 people got it. Some people don't even know they have it. I always had it as far as I can recall, but it wasn't until my mid 20s, when I stumbled upon a picture, that I reflected on it and the fact that not everyone sees number forms.
  - vctrnk 3y ago
    Oh wow. Count me in on the I didn't know I had that! camp. When younger I struggled horribly with ALL things math, and to this day still do. OTOH I've always had a knack for DIY involving measurements: lenghts, rythms, quantities, sizes, you name it. I just invoke my own "dynamic mind ruler" for the task at hand and usually get it right 1st try. Cooking something new? I intuitively know the proper amount of ingredients and spices. Doing work in a friend's car? That nut looks like a 3/4 and that one a 11/16, and who the heck put a 11mm in place of a 7/16?? Incidentally, the whole concept of Time always flows from right-to-left to me. 1000BC is waaay to the right, and 2030AC is just a stone throw away to the left. Now I wonder if it's something only I perceive that way, or everyone does.
    - precompute 3y ago
      Are you left-handed?
- tveita 3y ago
  Somewhat related, a survey of how Norwegian people visualize time: https://nrkbeta.no/2018/01/01/this-is-what-the-year-actually-looks-like/ https://nrkbeta.no/2018/01/01/this-is-what-the-year-actually...
  - Aeolun 3y ago
    This almost caused me an existential time crisis until I drew out my own year and realized it’s still as I remember. It just gets a bit smeared out in my head.
causi 3y ago
One of the more terrifying books ever written, if nothing else for the fact it opens one to the possibility we may all have such disorders on a species-wide level. What if there are things none of us allow ourselves to perceive?
- coldtea 3y ago
  How would that be terrifying? After learning it, it would still be the same exact world as was before we learned about it.
  - mistermann 3y ago
    That would require "learning it" to have zero persistence in any form would it not? How might one know such a thing?
    - coldtea 3y ago
      Not sure what you're asking. What is "that" which would require "'learning it' to have zero persistence in any form'"? What I meant is, even if we all learn that everybody in the world has "such disorders" and that "there are things none of us allow ourselves to perceive", what would the objective change be to make this "teriffying"? "There's a killer out to get you" or "you have X disease which will have those symptoms" is terrifying. "There are things that you don't know, and that you as a species can't even perceive" is at best amusing. This sudden knowledge doesn't change anything that's happening or makes anything that happened before more frightening, does it?
      - mistermann 3y ago
        >>>> One of the more terrifying books ever written, if nothing else for the fact it opens one to the possibility we may all have such disorders on a species-wide level. What if there are things none of us allow ourselves to perceive? >>> After learning it, it would still be the same exact world as was before we learned about it. >> That would require "learning it" to have zero persistence in any form would it not? How might one know such a thing? > Not sure what you're asking. What is "that" which would require "'learning it' to have zero persistence in any form'"? "That" = "it would still be the same exact world (as was before we learned about it)". World-State: 1 World-Event: at least one human becomes open to the possibility that we may all have such disorders on a species-wide level, that there may be things none of us allow ourselves to perceive. (And once an idea exists in one person's mind, they may act upon it at some point in the future.) World-State: 2 Are the two states identical? I would think not. > What I meant is, even if we all learn that everybody in the world has "such disorders" and that "there are things none of us allow ourselves to perceive", what would the objective change be to make this "teriffying"? To me, it can be "terrifying" to see risk that others cannot or, or refuse to try to see. Scientists and "scientific thinkers" often express fear of the quantity of "deniers" that don't agree with their risk assessments, and get even more terrified when the "deniers" refuse to listen to reason. Similarly, people like me feel similarly when it is the scientists who behave the same. > "There are things that you don't know, and that you as a species can't even perceive" is at best amusing. This is a consequence of the epistemic norms (lazy, colloquial, bad, etc) of the culture you grew up in: under strict epistemology (philosophical epistemology vs scientific epistemology), risk exists regardless of your personal opinion on it. Of course, this "is" "pedantic", so no expectation for you to take it seriously...though if my memory serves you are usually the one going against the grain here on HN, so perhaps there's a chance. :)
vjerancrnjak 3y ago
Another book that is very illuminating is "My Stroke of Insight" by Jill Bolte Taylor. Reading the brain stroke description can give non-experiential understanding of various Zen koans, including the non-verbal one where Buddha simply holds up a flower and it becomes entirely understandable to Mahakasyapa. It also points to the natural tendency of human beings to attribute profoundness or spirituality to various forms of brain malfunction. The author does it in the later chapters of the book.
- electrondood 3y ago
  LSD as well, and simply stopping the mind and experiencing the senses directly, without interpretation.
ProllyInfamous 3y ago
As long as we're discussing Dr. Sacks, I just read his short story (part of same-titled book) "An Anthropologist on Mars." The titles derive from Dr. Grandin Temple's perception of being high-functioning autist in academia/husbandry; she is best-known for re-designing slaughterhouse shutes, able to "see" as animals do. Her entire story left me, a spectrum-kiddo, grasping for what "real" even is. The thing that struck me as her "most unhuman" aspect [but with which I can relate, self-inflictedly]: Dr. Grandin doesn't understand most human social customs, so from a young age vowed to never enter into a romantic relationship. She considers this entirely a waste of time, and lives to work. Highly recommend Dr. Sacks many books/collections, may he RIP: [I'm just a fleshbag]: Man Who Mistook Wife for Hat [LGB / growing up]: Uncle Tungsten [Parkinsonianisms]: Awakenings
- avisser 3y ago
  Her name is Temple Grandin

dclowd9901 3y ago

I believe this. I never run so well as I do when I just look down about 10 feet in front of me and let my legs move as much on their own as possible.

mewpmewp2 3y ago

Flow happens to at least a lot of runners to be fair though. At certain distance when I'm running, it becomes very pleasurable, like you are above everything.

GlumWoodpecker 3y ago
Also known as "runner's high": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurobiological_effects_of_physical_exercise#Euphoria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurobiological_effects_of_phy...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
js2 3y ago
I've run over two dozen marathons, twice run 100 miles, and also run timed races of 24 hours and 12 hours (multiple times). I'm a decent runner, having run the Boston Marathon 5 times. I've never really experienced anything like what they're describing with Diane Van Deren. I'm not sure I've ever really experienced what folks refer to as the runner's high either. At best, I can say that there are times that my running is as effortless as walking, even when running at a fairly decent clip. During those effortless times, I've gotten lost in thought or in conversation with another runner, but no differently than I'd get lost in thought or conversation during other activities. I've never experienced any sense of euphoria when running. Joy and tears and emotional overload at the end of Boston sure, but not what I'd call euphoria. That runner's high sounds great though, for those who do experience it. :-)
- mewpmewp2 3y ago
  It usually happens to me at around 8km. I get inspiring thoughts, feel like I can achieve anything and at this point I would definitely not want to stop running. Maybe it could be similar to ADHD medicine then. You have ran some very impressive distances though.

elAhmo 3y ago

This was such a great listen, I came here to comment this and was glad that it was already here. It is amazing to realise that many of the physical limitations we have are coming from the brain.

ekanes 3y ago

Wow. Interesting connection between "trouble perceiving time" (negative) and "flow state" (usually positive). People with ADHD also have those two traits, perhaps giving further evidence that they come as a package. Across the broader population, I wonder if one could increase flow state access by removing reminders of time. Casinos do this, I think.

picadores 3y ago

I distinctly remember a HN post, were the father of the poster had the same problem. Meaning he would sometimes "crash" and just stand there, forgetting about the world everything - often for hours if nobody "interrupted".

avisser 3y ago

Towards the end of her life my grandmother had a few small strokes. After one, I clearly remember her loosing her pathfinding ability. She became lost in her 4 room basement, unable to find the stairs. At her worst, she seemingly got lost in her 5'x8' bathroom. I remember her just continuing to turn in place and then dismiss each direction as being the wrong way to proceed.

sizzle 3y ago
After seeing how hard it was to walk after my dad’s stroke I’ll never buy a 2 story home when I’m entering old age. It’s just so dangerous and easy to fall and never recover.