4 ms·

This idea is brilliant. Cars are inefficient means of transit in dense urban areas. Mass transit easily has many multiples if not an order of magnitude greater

This idea is brilliant. Cars are inefficient means of transit in dense urban areas. Mass transit easily has many multiples if not an order of magnitude greater ability to move more people/hr than autos. Our cities used to be structured around mass transit and walking before the advent of the car and the exodus to the suburbs. In the intervening century technology has rapidly progressed such that cities are no longer dirty, squalid environments, and in fact, places like NYC have the highest life expectancies in the nation. It’s time to return to proven solutions like street cars, or nowadays, Bus Rapid Transit.

woodruffw 3y ago
Yep. One thing to note: NYC has attempted Bus Rapid Transit (we call it the "Select Bus Service") to mixed results: the SBS routes are popular, but are also frequently delayed (drivers regularly park and drive in the dedicated bus routes, and the police have no interest whatsoever in enforcing the dedicated rights of way). Streetcars are significantly more expensive than BRT, but have at least two substantial advantages: they bring civic interest and investment (streetcar lines are semipermanent fixtures that real estate and communities can develop around), and they physically prevent the kind of petty infringement that personal drivers inflict upon bus riders.
- tekla 3y ago
  The bus situation is rapidly improved now. Buses are supposed to automatically take pictures of cars in the dedicated bus lane and will auto-fine drivers that park in them.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    Do you have a link or article for that? That's great if so, I hadn't heard about it. (I live on one of the most heavily used SBS routes in Brooklyn, and I've been disheartened by the blatant disregard trucks and other large cars have for the bus lane and bus parking slots. The stop closely to me is more often than not occupied by a trailer truck, meaning that the SBS bus unloads 50+ directly into traffic.)
  - cpdean 3y ago
    It sounds great in theory, but the reality is that many car owners obscure their license plates or use ghost plates. NYPD has no interest in enforcing the rules against this either.
    - BenFranklin100 3y ago
      Source? It’s illegal in all 50 states to obscure a license plate. I visit NYC frequently, and I don’t recall any obviously obscured plates. It beggars belief a significant fraction of automobiles are sporting fraudulent plates too.
      - woodruffw 3y ago
        I live in a dense part of Brooklyn, and I would estimate that 3-5% of all of the cars I see on my daily commute (by bicycle) have defaced, obscured, or illegal paper plates. If you want to see evidence of this yourself, I'd recommend stopping by the 78th precinct. NYC's finest have many creative examples to offer. Edit: A recent article on the phenomenon[1]. It's hard to get statistics for this kind of thing, since the NYPD has demonstrated a tactical indifference towards it. [1]: https://hellgatenyc.com/ghost-car-license-plates-illegal-but-city-council-wants-it-double-illegal https://hellgatenyc.com/ghost-car-license-plates-illegal-but...
        ornornor 3y ago
        > NYC's finest have many creative examples to offer. Am I understanding you correctly that the police staff themselves use illegal or obscured plates on their private vehicles which they park at the police employees parking lot, with no consequences whatsoever? If so this is insane.
        woodruffw 3y ago
        > Am I understanding you correctly that the police staff themselves use illegal or obscured plates on their private vehicles which they park Yes[1]. > at the police employees parking lot Nope, they park illegally on the sidewalk instead[2]. This includes on blocks with public schools[3]. > with no consequences whatsoever? If so this is insane. Yes, and yes. Edit: I forgot to mention: documenting any of this comes with a risk of fines or arrest[4]. You will also be ignored if you attempt to report it[5]. [1]: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/02/01/are-police-disciplining-cops-who-deface-their-plates-who-knows https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/02/01/are-police-disciplini... [2]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-04-12/mapping-the-nypd-s-sidewalk-parking-habit https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-04-12/mapping-t... [3]: https://www.vice.com/en/article/3ak54k/how-one-brooklyn-neighborhood-got-cops-to-stop-parking-on-a-school-sidewalk-for-the-first-time-in-40-years https://www.vice.com/en/article/3ak54k/how-one-brooklyn-neig... [4]: https://hellgatenyc.com/nypd-try-to-illegally-park-then-ticket-cyclist https://hellgatenyc.com/nypd-try-to-illegally-park-then-tick... [5]: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2021/10/25/nypd-ignores-council-request-for-info-on-apparently-fraudulent-311-responses https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2021/10/25/nypd-ignores-council-...
- sooheon 3y ago
  > police have no interest whatsoever in enforcing the dedicated rights of way Why is this stated like an unbreakable physical law? They are employees like any other, I'm sure there are ways to incentivize effective job performance.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    I don't know if you live in NY or not, but the these are the facts on the ground: * When it comes to traffic enforcement, the NYPD has effectively been on a silent strike for the last 3 years. * It's virtually impossible for the city to assert greater civilian control over the NYPD, in a large part because the NYPD simply ignores any transparency or accountability laws that are meant to reign it in. Punishing them for ignoring the laws is also virtually impossible, because it would require the city's DA's to prosecute the force they currently rely on. > I'm sure there are ways to incentivize effective job performance. The best incentive here would be initiating some form of civil liability for the NYPD, or otherwise ensuring that the NYPD cannot rely on the city's general budget to pay for their malfeasance. That's a political non-starter, so maybe just curtailing their overtime. Longer term, the NYPD needs to lose its special civil service status and require, like every other NYC agency, that its employees live in the city they police. This more than anything else is the most broken incentive around traffic enforcement: the majority of NYC cops live outside of the city and commute by car in[1], meaning that they simply do not care about the basic livability of the neighborhoods they police. This is manifest in the rampant illegal parking and defaced license plates around every NYPD precinct[2]. [1]: https://nypost.com/2023/06/03/more-nypd-officers-are-opting-to-live-outside-nyc/ https://nypost.com/2023/06/03/more-nypd-officers-are-opting-... [2]: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/03/nypds-illegal-parking-needs-to-be-curbed.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/03/nypds-illegal-parkin...
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Most every other city is having the same problem. For some reason, police aren’t enforcing laws due to whatever reason (staffing shortage, morale problems, union meddling, etc…).
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > and they physically prevent the kind of petty infringement that personal drivers inflict upon bus riders. Dedicated bus roads (not just lanes) would do the same thing. Lots of street car systems also share lanes with cars, so I wonder what is even the point of those.
  - rocqua 3y ago
    Street cars can brake abd dodge less. That makes them much harder to bully. Get in an accident with a bus, and the bus driver has some suspicion on him, people won't immediately blame you. Get in an accident with a tram, and you are just an idiot.
causi 3y ago
One of the most perverse things about large cities to me is that they start with a far too low roadway to person ratio for efficient car usage and then throw away half their road capacity so people can park on it.

woodruffw 3y ago

Yep. One thing to note: NYC has attempted Bus Rapid Transit (we call it the "Select Bus Service") to mixed results: the SBS routes are popular, but are also frequently delayed (drivers regularly park and drive in the dedicated bus routes, and the police have no interest whatsoever in enforcing the dedicated rights of way). Streetcars are significantly more expensive than BRT, but have at least two substantial advantages: they bring civic interest and investment (streetcar lines are semipermanent fixtures that real estate and communities can develop around), and they physically prevent the kind of petty infringement that personal drivers inflict upon bus riders.

tekla 3y ago
The bus situation is rapidly improved now. Buses are supposed to automatically take pictures of cars in the dedicated bus lane and will auto-fine drivers that park in them.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  Do you have a link or article for that? That's great if so, I hadn't heard about it. (I live on one of the most heavily used SBS routes in Brooklyn, and I've been disheartened by the blatant disregard trucks and other large cars have for the bus lane and bus parking slots. The stop closely to me is more often than not occupied by a trailer truck, meaning that the SBS bus unloads 50+ directly into traffic.)
- cpdean 3y ago
  It sounds great in theory, but the reality is that many car owners obscure their license plates or use ghost plates. NYPD has no interest in enforcing the rules against this either.
  - BenFranklin100 3y ago
    Source? It’s illegal in all 50 states to obscure a license plate. I visit NYC frequently, and I don’t recall any obviously obscured plates. It beggars belief a significant fraction of automobiles are sporting fraudulent plates too.
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      I live in a dense part of Brooklyn, and I would estimate that 3-5% of all of the cars I see on my daily commute (by bicycle) have defaced, obscured, or illegal paper plates. If you want to see evidence of this yourself, I'd recommend stopping by the 78th precinct. NYC's finest have many creative examples to offer. Edit: A recent article on the phenomenon[1]. It's hard to get statistics for this kind of thing, since the NYPD has demonstrated a tactical indifference towards it. [1]: https://hellgatenyc.com/ghost-car-license-plates-illegal-but-city-council-wants-it-double-illegal https://hellgatenyc.com/ghost-car-license-plates-illegal-but...
      - ornornor 3y ago
        > NYC's finest have many creative examples to offer. Am I understanding you correctly that the police staff themselves use illegal or obscured plates on their private vehicles which they park at the police employees parking lot, with no consequences whatsoever? If so this is insane.
        woodruffw 3y ago
        > Am I understanding you correctly that the police staff themselves use illegal or obscured plates on their private vehicles which they park Yes[1]. > at the police employees parking lot Nope, they park illegally on the sidewalk instead[2]. This includes on blocks with public schools[3]. > with no consequences whatsoever? If so this is insane. Yes, and yes. Edit: I forgot to mention: documenting any of this comes with a risk of fines or arrest[4]. You will also be ignored if you attempt to report it[5]. [1]: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/02/01/are-police-disciplining-cops-who-deface-their-plates-who-knows https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/02/01/are-police-disciplini... [2]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-04-12/mapping-the-nypd-s-sidewalk-parking-habit https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-04-12/mapping-t... [3]: https://www.vice.com/en/article/3ak54k/how-one-brooklyn-neighborhood-got-cops-to-stop-parking-on-a-school-sidewalk-for-the-first-time-in-40-years https://www.vice.com/en/article/3ak54k/how-one-brooklyn-neig... [4]: https://hellgatenyc.com/nypd-try-to-illegally-park-then-ticket-cyclist https://hellgatenyc.com/nypd-try-to-illegally-park-then-tick... [5]: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2021/10/25/nypd-ignores-council-request-for-info-on-apparently-fraudulent-311-responses https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2021/10/25/nypd-ignores-council-...
sooheon 3y ago
> police have no interest whatsoever in enforcing the dedicated rights of way Why is this stated like an unbreakable physical law? They are employees like any other, I'm sure there are ways to incentivize effective job performance.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  I don't know if you live in NY or not, but the these are the facts on the ground: * When it comes to traffic enforcement, the NYPD has effectively been on a silent strike for the last 3 years. * It's virtually impossible for the city to assert greater civilian control over the NYPD, in a large part because the NYPD simply ignores any transparency or accountability laws that are meant to reign it in. Punishing them for ignoring the laws is also virtually impossible, because it would require the city's DA's to prosecute the force they currently rely on. > I'm sure there are ways to incentivize effective job performance. The best incentive here would be initiating some form of civil liability for the NYPD, or otherwise ensuring that the NYPD cannot rely on the city's general budget to pay for their malfeasance. That's a political non-starter, so maybe just curtailing their overtime. Longer term, the NYPD needs to lose its special civil service status and require, like every other NYC agency, that its employees live in the city they police. This more than anything else is the most broken incentive around traffic enforcement: the majority of NYC cops live outside of the city and commute by car in[1], meaning that they simply do not care about the basic livability of the neighborhoods they police. This is manifest in the rampant illegal parking and defaced license plates around every NYPD precinct[2]. [1]: https://nypost.com/2023/06/03/more-nypd-officers-are-opting-to-live-outside-nyc/ https://nypost.com/2023/06/03/more-nypd-officers-are-opting-... [2]: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/03/nypds-illegal-parking-needs-to-be-curbed.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/03/nypds-illegal-parkin...
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Most every other city is having the same problem. For some reason, police aren’t enforcing laws due to whatever reason (staffing shortage, morale problems, union meddling, etc…).
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
> and they physically prevent the kind of petty infringement that personal drivers inflict upon bus riders. Dedicated bus roads (not just lanes) would do the same thing. Lots of street car systems also share lanes with cars, so I wonder what is even the point of those.
- rocqua 3y ago
  Street cars can brake abd dodge less. That makes them much harder to bully. Get in an accident with a bus, and the bus driver has some suspicion on him, people won't immediately blame you. Get in an accident with a tram, and you are just an idiot.

causi 3y ago

One of the most perverse things about large cities to me is that they start with a far too low roadway to person ratio for efficient car usage and then throw away half their road capacity so people can park on it.