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Something I’ve been hammering on recently: NYC could build new light rail lines relatively rapidly and cheaply, especially in Brooklyn and Queens: much of those

Something I’ve been hammering on recently: NYC could build new light rail lines relatively rapidly and cheaply, especially in Brooklyn and Queens: much of those boroughs was covered by streetcar lines until the 1950s, and all of the streets that those lines ran on are still graded for that purpose. In some places they didn’t even bother to pull up the old rails, and just paved over them instead[1]. The roads themselves are owned by the city too, sidestepping half of the bureaucratic process that comes with the state-run MTA. [1]: https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Tracks_on_Broadway https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Tracks_on_Broadway

BenFranklin100 3y ago
This idea is brilliant. Cars are inefficient means of transit in dense urban areas. Mass transit easily has many multiples if not an order of magnitude greater ability to move more people/hr than autos. Our cities used to be structured around mass transit and walking before the advent of the car and the exodus to the suburbs. In the intervening century technology has rapidly progressed such that cities are no longer dirty, squalid environments, and in fact, places like NYC have the highest life expectancies in the nation. It’s time to return to proven solutions like street cars, or nowadays, Bus Rapid Transit.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  Yep. One thing to note: NYC has attempted Bus Rapid Transit (we call it the "Select Bus Service") to mixed results: the SBS routes are popular, but are also frequently delayed (drivers regularly park and drive in the dedicated bus routes, and the police have no interest whatsoever in enforcing the dedicated rights of way). Streetcars are significantly more expensive than BRT, but have at least two substantial advantages: they bring civic interest and investment (streetcar lines are semipermanent fixtures that real estate and communities can develop around), and they physically prevent the kind of petty infringement that personal drivers inflict upon bus riders.
  - tekla 3y ago
    The bus situation is rapidly improved now. Buses are supposed to automatically take pictures of cars in the dedicated bus lane and will auto-fine drivers that park in them.
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      Do you have a link or article for that? That's great if so, I hadn't heard about it. (I live on one of the most heavily used SBS routes in Brooklyn, and I've been disheartened by the blatant disregard trucks and other large cars have for the bus lane and bus parking slots. The stop closely to me is more often than not occupied by a trailer truck, meaning that the SBS bus unloads 50+ directly into traffic.)
    - cpdean 3y ago
      It sounds great in theory, but the reality is that many car owners obscure their license plates or use ghost plates. NYPD has no interest in enforcing the rules against this either.
      - BenFranklin100 3y ago
        Source? It’s illegal in all 50 states to obscure a license plate. I visit NYC frequently, and I don’t recall any obviously obscured plates. It beggars belief a significant fraction of automobiles are sporting fraudulent plates too.
        woodruffw 3y ago
        I live in a dense part of Brooklyn, and I would estimate that 3-5% of all of the cars I see on my daily commute (by bicycle) have defaced, obscured, or illegal paper plates. If you want to see evidence of this yourself, I'd recommend stopping by the 78th precinct. NYC's finest have many creative examples to offer. Edit: A recent article on the phenomenon[1]. It's hard to get statistics for this kind of thing, since the NYPD has demonstrated a tactical indifference towards it. [1]: https://hellgatenyc.com/ghost-car-license-plates-illegal-but-city-council-wants-it-double-illegal https://hellgatenyc.com/ghost-car-license-plates-illegal-but...
- causi 3y ago
  One of the most perverse things about large cities to me is that they start with a far too low roadway to person ratio for efficient car usage and then throw away half their road capacity so people can park on it.
gniv 3y ago
[Deleted my comment. I don’t feel strongly about it and I was partially wrong.]
- woodruffw 3y ago
  > And stations have to be created in the middle of the street, a hazard for pedestrians. Why? The NYC bus network closely mirrors the old streetcar network, and uses sidewalk dropoffs; there’s no reason why reactivated streetcars couldn’t do the same. The point about integration with traffic is a reasonable one, but see below the point about civic value: NYC needs less traffic on its streets, and inducing behavior away from driving by taking up that space with a permanent streetcar line doesn’t seem like the worst approach to me.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Non-grade separated street cars are dangerous and can still get into accidents, while they only provide slightly more capacity than buses at the expense of a lot of flexibility. But they are more charming at least, in a city like Bern or Lyon.
- sofixa 3y ago
  Streetcars/Trams can have a lot mote capacity than a bus. Cities such as Paris, Rio de Janeiro, Constantine use 7 section Alstom Citadis trams, and there is even a 9 section version. Articulated buses stop at ~3 sections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Citadis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Citadis
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    I did say slightly more capacity? A tram in bern has a bit more capacity than an electric caterpillar bus used in Lausanne. They aren’t doing many 7 section trams in Bern because much if their routes aren’t completely grade separated. I’ve actually never seen a 7 section tram anywhere, including Paris…a new thing?
    - sofixa 3y ago
      > I did say slightly more capacity Almost double (a Citadis tram can accomodate up to 370, "super articulated" buses like the Citaro CapaCity up to 200) isn't slightly more. > They aren’t doing many 7 section trams in Bern because much if their routes aren’t completely grade separated It's not the grade separation that matters, but turn radii and intersection length and distance (basically can such a tram fit in the physical space available). > I’ve actually never seen a 7 section tram anywhere, including Paris…a new thing Paris Tram T3(a and b) have been using 7 section trams since the original opening as T3 in 2006. According to Wikipedia there are at least 8 cities with 7 section Citadis, and at least one with 9 sections (Dublin) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Citadis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Citadis . And of course this isn't the only model of modern trams in existance, there's also Bombardier's models (acquired by Alstom), Siemens, Pesa, Solaris, Stadler, etc.
renewiltord 3y ago
Imagine me your sworn enemy. I hate you and you shall never be redeemed in my eyes. I own a home on the route. How much will it cost you to overcome me? Add that to the cost. That's the true cost. Imagine I'll claim all sorts of things: environment, the poor, gentrification, toxic chemicals.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  I don’t understand this comment, sorry. Are you being sarcastic, or do you not like streetcars? Edit: I read again, and I think you’re trying to point out that there’s a higher true cost. There almost certainly is, and it’s going to be more than similar projects in similar cities. The only really relevant question is whether it’s cheaper than building new subway lines, which it also almost certainly is.

BenFranklin100 3y ago

This idea is brilliant. Cars are inefficient means of transit in dense urban areas. Mass transit easily has many multiples if not an order of magnitude greater ability to move more people/hr than autos. Our cities used to be structured around mass transit and walking before the advent of the car and the exodus to the suburbs. In the intervening century technology has rapidly progressed such that cities are no longer dirty, squalid environments, and in fact, places like NYC have the highest life expectancies in the nation. It’s time to return to proven solutions like street cars, or nowadays, Bus Rapid Transit.

woodruffw 3y ago
Yep. One thing to note: NYC has attempted Bus Rapid Transit (we call it the "Select Bus Service") to mixed results: the SBS routes are popular, but are also frequently delayed (drivers regularly park and drive in the dedicated bus routes, and the police have no interest whatsoever in enforcing the dedicated rights of way). Streetcars are significantly more expensive than BRT, but have at least two substantial advantages: they bring civic interest and investment (streetcar lines are semipermanent fixtures that real estate and communities can develop around), and they physically prevent the kind of petty infringement that personal drivers inflict upon bus riders.
- tekla 3y ago
  The bus situation is rapidly improved now. Buses are supposed to automatically take pictures of cars in the dedicated bus lane and will auto-fine drivers that park in them.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    Do you have a link or article for that? That's great if so, I hadn't heard about it. (I live on one of the most heavily used SBS routes in Brooklyn, and I've been disheartened by the blatant disregard trucks and other large cars have for the bus lane and bus parking slots. The stop closely to me is more often than not occupied by a trailer truck, meaning that the SBS bus unloads 50+ directly into traffic.)
  - cpdean 3y ago
    It sounds great in theory, but the reality is that many car owners obscure their license plates or use ghost plates. NYPD has no interest in enforcing the rules against this either.
    - BenFranklin100 3y ago
      Source? It’s illegal in all 50 states to obscure a license plate. I visit NYC frequently, and I don’t recall any obviously obscured plates. It beggars belief a significant fraction of automobiles are sporting fraudulent plates too.
      - woodruffw 3y ago
        I live in a dense part of Brooklyn, and I would estimate that 3-5% of all of the cars I see on my daily commute (by bicycle) have defaced, obscured, or illegal paper plates. If you want to see evidence of this yourself, I'd recommend stopping by the 78th precinct. NYC's finest have many creative examples to offer. Edit: A recent article on the phenomenon[1]. It's hard to get statistics for this kind of thing, since the NYPD has demonstrated a tactical indifference towards it. [1]: https://hellgatenyc.com/ghost-car-license-plates-illegal-but-city-council-wants-it-double-illegal https://hellgatenyc.com/ghost-car-license-plates-illegal-but...
causi 3y ago
One of the most perverse things about large cities to me is that they start with a far too low roadway to person ratio for efficient car usage and then throw away half their road capacity so people can park on it.

gniv 3y ago

[Deleted my comment. I don’t feel strongly about it and I was partially wrong.]

woodruffw 3y ago
> And stations have to be created in the middle of the street, a hazard for pedestrians. Why? The NYC bus network closely mirrors the old streetcar network, and uses sidewalk dropoffs; there’s no reason why reactivated streetcars couldn’t do the same. The point about integration with traffic is a reasonable one, but see below the point about civic value: NYC needs less traffic on its streets, and inducing behavior away from driving by taking up that space with a permanent streetcar line doesn’t seem like the worst approach to me.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

Non-grade separated street cars are dangerous and can still get into accidents, while they only provide slightly more capacity than buses at the expense of a lot of flexibility. But they are more charming at least, in a city like Bern or Lyon.

sofixa 3y ago
Streetcars/Trams can have a lot mote capacity than a bus. Cities such as Paris, Rio de Janeiro, Constantine use 7 section Alstom Citadis trams, and there is even a 9 section version. Articulated buses stop at ~3 sections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Citadis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Citadis
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  I did say slightly more capacity? A tram in bern has a bit more capacity than an electric caterpillar bus used in Lausanne. They aren’t doing many 7 section trams in Bern because much if their routes aren’t completely grade separated. I’ve actually never seen a 7 section tram anywhere, including Paris…a new thing?
  - sofixa 3y ago
    > I did say slightly more capacity Almost double (a Citadis tram can accomodate up to 370, "super articulated" buses like the Citaro CapaCity up to 200) isn't slightly more. > They aren’t doing many 7 section trams in Bern because much if their routes aren’t completely grade separated It's not the grade separation that matters, but turn radii and intersection length and distance (basically can such a tram fit in the physical space available). > I’ve actually never seen a 7 section tram anywhere, including Paris…a new thing Paris Tram T3(a and b) have been using 7 section trams since the original opening as T3 in 2006. According to Wikipedia there are at least 8 cities with 7 section Citadis, and at least one with 9 sections (Dublin) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Citadis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Citadis . And of course this isn't the only model of modern trams in existance, there's also Bombardier's models (acquired by Alstom), Siemens, Pesa, Solaris, Stadler, etc.

renewiltord 3y ago

Imagine me your sworn enemy. I hate you and you shall never be redeemed in my eyes. I own a home on the route. How much will it cost you to overcome me? Add that to the cost. That's the true cost. Imagine I'll claim all sorts of things: environment, the poor, gentrification, toxic chemicals.

woodruffw 3y ago
I don’t understand this comment, sorry. Are you being sarcastic, or do you not like streetcars? Edit: I read again, and I think you’re trying to point out that there’s a higher true cost. There almost certainly is, and it’s going to be more than similar projects in similar cities. The only really relevant question is whether it’s cheaper than building new subway lines, which it also almost certainly is.