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Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?
- kaapipo 3y agoObligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo&t=2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo&t=2
- bdavbdav 3y agoI’m all for fewer people driving them (most are just lifted versions of normal cars now, but more uncomfortable and inefficient), but I’m very sure messing essential safety features (correctly pressurised tyres) is not how you get that point t across.
- detritus 3y agoThe point is not to slightly adjust the tire pressure to some dangerous state, but to completely deflate them to be a pain in the rear to re-inflate before driving off again.
- jlund-molfese 3y agoWell, these guys are not professionals and it's completely possible for someone's tires to be partially deflated and the flyer to blow away, leading to a dangerous situation. Regardless, what's more likely when someone deflates your tires and makes you miss an important event—that you'll suddenly take your car to the junkyard and buy a bicycle, or that you'll just have a more negative opinion of environmentalists? Plus, you can't know why someone's driving a particular car. Maybe that used hybrid SUV was the easiest thing to modify for wheelchair use, the only thing they could afford that sat everyone in their family, or they really do need to tow something a few times a year. Even in the UK, going onto someone else's property to disable/damage their cars will eventually lead to physical altercations.
- blitzar 3y ago> activists operating under the group’s banner used power tools to puncture the tyres While a punctured tyre will deflate, reinflation of the tyre after it has been adjusted with a drill or saw is unlikely to be a simple task.
- kergonath 3y agoMessing with other people’s cars is not great, there should be better solutions.
- therealdrag0 3y agoMore uncomfortable? Why do you think people buy them?
- bdavbdav 3y agoWhat SUV is more comfortable than its wagon or saloon equivalent? I’d definitely rather be sat in a 5 series than an X5.
- therealdrag0 3y agoMy comfort is largely a function of how high I sit. Iirc suvs just have deeper bigger foot wells, and are easier to get in and out of without squatting.
- kergonath 3y agoCars should be taxed based on their weight and there should be much stricter standards regarding visibility. There is no reason why most of us should subsidise a few people’s status symbol and their entirely unnecessary use of public resources. Ultimately you should not be able to buy these, at least in their current form, as they serve no purpose whatsoever besides inflating their owner’s ego at a significant cost to others. We are not talking about pickup trucks and light trucks used in the countryside: these monstrosities are designed for motorways and paved roads and will never see as much as a dirt road.
- r3pl4y 3y ago> Cars should be taxed based on their weight Not against that, but there should be an exception for electric vehicles, because these batteries are heavy.
- lukas099 3y agoMaybe an offset, not an exception imo.
- tjoff 3y agoPollution must be taxed as well, and electric vehicles will have an advantage there. No need to unnecessarily dictate technology. We want light cars and we don't want pollution.
- agilob 3y agoHell no, new Mercedes-Benz eActros 600 electric lorry has battery that weights 4500 kg. Add that tyres will wear out much sooner and produce more microplastics pollution killing rivers. 4500 kg is MORE THAN TWO Ford F-150 https://nimbnet.com/news/mercedes-benz-eactros-600-a-long-range-electric-truck/ https://nimbnet.com/news/mercedes-benz-eactros-600-a-long-ra...
- Tade0 3y agoI think that if at all, this exemption should last until 2030 at maximum. The reason is that batteries with densities sufficient to make EVs no heavier than ICEs exist (like https://amprius.com/products/ https://amprius.com/products/ ) but they need investment for production to be scaled up - the 5GWh plant Amprius is planning will go entirely to niche applications, so it's not enough. Meanwhile the Chinese are introducing cars with 700kg+ batteries: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeekr_009 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeekr_009 This is counterproductive.
- jstanley 3y agoAfter all the talk about fake off-road capability, is a Land Rover Defender really the best example?
- johndunne 3y agoI thought that - there's alot of farms where I live in Yorkshire and the defender is the most commonly seen vehicle on them. They're primarily designed for off road mud baths and fit the bill well. I think most (not all) SUVs are designed to be large cars, with off road capability. I'm reminded of the Merc GLE bounce mode :D
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- lukas099 3y agoI'm glad people are resisting these somewhere in the world. Wish it would happen where I live.
- 75w 3y agoIs this motivated by environmentalism or is this about class?
- detritus 3y agoClass... is a tricky definition here in the UK. For instance, the richest person I will ever know drives a crappy wee Japanese hatchback, whilst SUVs are often high-monthly fee status symbols for people who could spend their money 'better' elsewise. shrug
- johndunne 3y agoI'm in my 40's and the number of my friends who've done exactly that. We have the friends who spend their disposable on status and the friends who spend their disposable on Holidays (I'm vaca-class).
- Holocene 3y agoI think you actually mean - you have friends who derive status by spending their disposal income on cars, and friends who derive status by spending their disposable income on exotic holidays! (I'm posting this from an exotic holiday in the Indian Ocean, my cousin lives in Essex and has a hire-purchase SUV.)
- mft_ 3y agoOld money vs. new money, etc.
- krona 3y agoThis is the Guardian so it's definitely about resentment of one form or another.
- walthamstow 3y agoClass is not easy to nail down in the UK. The high-income white people in my area of London ride bicycles
- 75w 3y ago
- nologic01 3y agoOversized SUV's littering urban landscapes (taking effectively twice the space of a small electric car) are the tangible evidence of how society grows not just unsustainable and unequal, but aggressive and in-your-face. I don't think there is any other period where the front "face" of a car aimed to create such an ugly, intimidating impression (i am huge and i will tear you apart). Their popularity speaks volumes about the true psychological state of a good fraction of moneyed society. While wealth display is always a thing, the manner in which it is done is not preordained, it provides insights into the state of society. Once car manufacturers realized the larger and scarier the better selling the trajectory was locked.
- paganel 3y ago> aking effectively twice the space of a small electric car Not that many "small electric cars" out there, Teslas are big, as are the ID.3s and the like coming from Volkswagen. For reference, an ID.3 weights a maximum of almost 2 tons (1935 kg, to be more exact), that's compared to the maximum of 1500 kg for a Golf 7. To say nothing of my 2006 1.4 NA Seat Ibiza weighting just 1054 kg, but which is seen as worst than the devil itself because of its age. So, yeah, I don't buy this crusade against SUVs coming from EV people, seeing as my very lightweight petrol car is also on their chopping block.
- isoprophlex 3y agoFiat 500e, Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe, Peugeot 208e, whatever ugly shit Opel/Vauxhall is pushing out...
- paganel 3y agoNone of those cars (toys) get you very far outside of the city. And inside of the city we've got public transportation.
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- jdietrich 3y agoNote to American readers: The most popular "SUVs" in Britain are small crossovers that are compact or subcompact cars by American standards. The Ford Puma is currently the best-selling car in the UK and while it's marketed as an SUV, it's based on the same platform as the Ford Fiesta. It has big wheels and an SUV silhouette, but the base model has a 1 litre engine with a mild hybrid system and 4 wheel drive isn't even an option. There's a strong marketing trend towards taller cars with a more imposing road presence, but most of these cars aren't actually very big. The psychology is quite interesting - auto makers are trying to make small cars look tough and rugged without actually making them wider, heavier, less efficient or more expensive; this has in turn led to a lot of people feeling intimidated by cars that are basically just compacts in cosplay.
- raverbashing 3y agoBut things like Land Rover models are popular, and are SUV sized no?
- jdietrich 3y agoLarger SUVs do exist on the UK market, but they really aren't very popular because they're very inconvenient on our narrow roads and prohibitively expensive for most people. To my knowledge, the biggest passenger cars on the UK market are the Range Rover and the Hyundai Santa Fe, which I believe would be classed as mid-size SUVs on the US market. If you were to import something like an Escalade or a Navigator, you'd attract an awful lot of attention but you'd struggle to park it anywhere.
- benj111 3y agoF150s and the like are getting increasingly popular. When I see one actually carrying something in the back I'll let you know.
- raverbashing 3y agoYeah not even the handymen use those, they prefer a van It's cheaper, easier to park and also due to the weather I'd say
- dmazin 3y agoI was nodding along until I read that they deflate XC90s. To me, that is a completely reasonable car if you have 3 children. I know people who buy Range Rovers just to drive to work, but not XC90s.
- blitzar 3y agoThis is the equivalent thought process as "everyone making my salary + £1 or more gets paid way too much money and should be taxed at 100%"
- azherebtsov 3y agoWhat car would you recommend to a family of five? I have 2 kids and when we go for a trip the my Citroen c4 is full. Would I have one more kid it’s no way we can fit into this car, despite it has 5 seats. Should we stop thinking about road trips and consider only plane/train/bus? Or should we consider only van/caravan? I support the argument that unnecessary consumption should be penalised somehow, but I do not support blanket type rules that may discriminate absolutely reasonable people, like those with more than 2 kids.
- LeanderK 3y agoI don't think you can drive a SUV in a city and fit 3 children in there. It's just too enormous, think about how massive it would be. We drove a van when I was small (VW sharan), which is the reasonable choice I think. I think SUV-type cars are generally too big for a city, except the smallest and a family should by a van as a van does generally not have such a large hood and it's height is not so high. Big cars in a city have negative consequences for others. This is not only about enviromentalism, but increasing walkability, liveability and bike-ability in dense city environments. In my last city (Tübingen), you have to buy a "parking pass" as a resident to park in the neighbourhood. They recently greatly increased the price for an SUV, which I think is a good idea.
- azherebtsov 3y ago
- switch007 3y agoThe state of our roads are terrible, which encourages bigger tyres and cars with more ground clearance, and hence bigger cars. They’re so bad that any MP or councillor who promises to fix potholes will get a lot of support. But crossover are a good compromise. They’re still quite light, have efficient engines and aren’t really that different to their hatchback counterparts. I do think car manufacturers set their prices of this segment way too high, but the market has spoken (they sell tremendously well) However I feel the need to feel more important and bigger is a considerable factor in their popularity too. They also reflect our growing waistlines.
- hkt 3y agoObligatory plug for cycling and cycling infrastructure. Getting people out of cars - all cars - is a necessity for preventing catastrophic climate change.
- wepple 3y agoI simply can’t see cycling as the answer. Public transport, 100% yes. But when people suggesting cycling I feel like they’re asking for their hobby to be taxpayer subsidized. How does it work for those who aren’t fully bodily abled? When it snows and rains? Traveling non-trivial distances? Hills?
- matsemann 3y agoWe have lots of snow and hills here in Norway. I bike year around. Studded tires in the winter. I always find the argument a bit funny, because on the worst snow days the roads are littered with cars and accidents. While I bike happily past. Electric bikes solves the hills-problem for those that don't want to get sweaty. I see lots of parents shipping their kids around on cargo bikes. I hate the argument about "bodily abled". What about all those that cannot drive? Lots of conditions where that's the case. Or even factors as age (young, old), money (car is expensive). A car centric society is far more excluding than one made for active modes of transport and public transport. Additionally, one can of course make provisions for those that need a car because of handicaps. Would you be fine if we banned cars in the city centre, except for those not bodily abled? My experience is that those pushing HC as an argument doesn't do it in good faith.
- azherebtsov 3y agoI really think that cargo bikes should be banned forever as a huge threat for kids inside. I feel like this is invented for those who takes caring of environment as a religion and ready to sacrifice own kids for it. One could say that the danger for them is mainly from cars but you can say so about public transport. I.e bus or tram is dangerous for cargo bike occupants. I really do not get this when I see cargo bike with two kids inside, two kids bikes hanging on the sides and bags of groceries pulled by one cyclists. What is the point? Prove that you are strong enough?
- rwmj 3y agoI'd also like manufacturers to make smaller cars and stop with the "auto-besity" where even the same model of car gets larger and larger each year. The current Mini is an SUV!
- G3rn0ti 3y agoFlattening tyres on other people’s cars could cause fatal road accidents. Consider these leaflets could get lost and the driver not realizing their tyre is flat (especially if it’s one on the back) when driving off. If you are an „activist“ you might potentially commit manslaughter. No amount of environmental conscience gives you morally the right to potentially hurt other people.
- pjmlp 3y agoForbid them, the cities aren't farmer fields.
- shapefrog 3y ago> on the edge of Clapham Common Clapham is the land where the war is fought between the SUV and the SUV impaling cones - placed strategically on the pavement to lure them and trap them. https://www.reddit.com/r/london/comments/slre54/driving_on_pavement_drama_on_nextdoor/ https://www.reddit.com/r/london/comments/slre54/driving_on_p...
- HatchedLake721 3y agoInteresting statistic, 6 out of 10 most safest vehicles today for pedestrians and cyclists in Europe are SUVs. See below from Euro NCAP and sort by "Vulnerable Road Users" (green person walking icon) https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-ratings/#?selectedMake=0&selectedMakeName=Select%20a%20make&selectedModel=0&selectedStar=&includeFullSafetyPackage=true&includeStandardSafetyPackage=true&selectedModelName=All&selectedProtocols=49446,45155,41776,40302,34803,30636,26061,24370,-1&selectedClasses=1202,1199,1201,1196,1205,1203,1198,1179,40250,1197,1204,1180,34736,44997&allClasses=true&allProtocols=true&allDriverAssistanceTechnologies=false&selectedDriverAssistanceTechnologies=&thirdRowFitment=false https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-ra...
- Havoc 3y agoLaw should definitely restrict this so that we don’t end up with silly oversized cars like the US. But deflating tyres does not seem to be the way to go. The majority of people just harden their stance if something like that hits them
- seydor 3y ago> Yet SUVs are selling better than ever. We are talking about european SUVs which by american standards are small cars. What to do? Expand cities, allow more housing because people don't want (but are forced by building codes) to live crammed in centuries old apartments, and they want the flexibility of a car that even works offroad (oh the luxury!). Why do we pretend that increasing the value of real estate is the only goal societies should have? People want to be happy. Emissions have become a convenient excuse to make life miserable. We have green technologies in cars and in housing to use, sustainability is no longer an excuse.
- rlkf 3y agoThe problem is ironically only exacerbated by electrification as the market for EVs seems to be divided in two: You must seemingly choose between very small cars such as the MiEV, or the gargantuan likes of Teslas. There are no electrical MPVs or stationwagons. And with no carbon emissions, people have less qualms about picking the SUV, turning a blind eye to the production emissions and safety hazards.
- azherebtsov 3y agoThere is something in the middle like VW ID Buzz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_ID._Buzz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_ID._Buzz with the size of a SUV and quite a good range between 400 and 600 km. And without SUV safety issues like limited observability. Not too many Vans like this around, but I think they will gain popularity. Obviously Mercedes Vito will be a good base for EV Van.
- jimnotgym 3y agoI live in the UK countryside. I drive a Ford focus a lot of the time, it is nice to drive and does about 53mpg according to the trip computer. Unfortunately the undertray grounds out on some of the roads around here due to the camber. Many of our lanes are single track and the passing places are not maintained so they tend to have giant potholes and you can easily get stuck. I occasionally need to go down roads that knock the undertray clean off. I kept the Focus for my commute and bought an old 4x4 to deal with the rougher roads. This is great, but I pay double road tax (it is a lot on the old 4x4, despite it doing very few miles), double insurance, double MOT. I think I am doing the best I can in the circumstances, but I think I would be financially better off commuting in an SUV. Why should I be financially penalised because these cars are inappropriate for London?
- wkjagt 3y agoWhen driving my Miata, the size of the other cars on the road is getting scarier every year. I'm in a somewhat rural part of Canada, so there are many oversized pickups. An additional consequence of higher vehicles is that their headlights are placed higher, and often other people's lights are at the same level as my eyes, making it really uncomfortable to drive at night because I get blinded all the time by these huge trucks coming from the opposite direction.
- underseacables 3y agoIncrease the fuel efficiency requirements. In America, SUVs are classified as a light truck. That's the problem. If SUVs had to meet the same fuel efficiency standards as a passenger vehicle, they would not exist.
- rickydroll 3y agoI suggest a road use tax based on volume and mass. it would nudge the consumer to choose smaller, lighter vehicles. a side effect would be accelerating the development of lighter batteries for ev use.
- fanf2 3y agoTax motor vehicles based on the distance between a short driver (160 cm, say) and the nearest visible part of the road in front, and the nearest visible part of the road on the passenger side, without camera assistance. This would directly target the features that make them unsafe, and it is in line with the safety improvements that are being imposed on buses and heavy goods vehicles.
- simonblack 3y agoI have hated SUVs for decades, and have denigrated their owners for all that time. I prefer light, small, nippy, manoeuvrable cars with small turning circles. (Like my Leyland Mini, or my Mazda Rotary R100 of days gone by.) So here I am, the unproud owner of an SUV, myself. I was forced to give up a nice sedan/saloon that was only two and a bit years old, with less than 10,000 of my driving kilometres on it. The reason for that was to store the components of my wifes mobility scooter. The nicer, smaller car just couldn't hack it. The scooter-storage necessity had turned a normal 4-door 5-passenger car with boot into basically a 2-seater car with practically no luggage space. On the few occasions when I don't have to carry the scooter in the cargo-space of the SUV, I am still gob-smacked at the amount of empty space in that damned thing. And it's only a mid-sized SUV too. So please don't vandalise those SUVs. You'd probably find that we're in complete agreement with you if we spent a few minutes over a beer or two.
- kozzz 3y agoBigger taller and heavier vehicles are safer in collision with smaller cars. In the society where drunk, stupid and agressive people are allowed to drive (which is clearly the case in the UK), it’s entirely logical to buy an SUV, as long as you’re concerned about the safety of your family
- WentFullRetard 3y ago[dead]