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U.S. cities consider banning "right on red" laws amid rise in pedestrian deaths
- starbase 3y agoLawmaking can be so irrational. In impacts below 20mph, pedestrian deaths are rare. Right on red is a 0-10mph maneuver and that's being generous.
- junkypuppet 3y ago10mph is fast from my pedestrian point of view on the sidewalk
- dingusdew 3y ago[dead]
- mikelward 3y agoIn California I've seen people do it without stopping, they would have been doing about 20. Of course, that would have been illegal, but I think right on red laws encourage it.
- shagymoe 3y agoYou haven't seen Florida drivers turn right on red. Also, is death the only measurement? Would you be happy to be paralyzed or maimed?
- zbentley 3y agoThe article seems to indicate that pedestrian collisions are common during this maneuver, even if deaths are unlikely. Given that collisions are costly (injuries, insurance) and damaging (make people afraid of streets, make neighborhoods less safe for people to inhabit), it doesn't seem irrational to try to reduce them, deadly or not.
- acdha 3y agoThere are negative impacts other than death - especially in the United States where medical care is triple the cost of the rest of the world and we have very limited provisions for long term care or disability support. Drivers routinely make a right turn on red at 20+mph in most American cities and while trauma care is efficient enough that you probably won’t die, there’s a good chance it’ll have life-altering consequences.
- noahjk 3y agoAnother thing to consider is that 20 years ago, you’d be more likely to go up on a cars hood. Nowadays with the average height of vehicles, I’d imagine that more likely than not people will be going under vehicles that don’t stop right away.
- dudul 3y ago> The car was moving slowly enough that Langerman escaped serious injury, but the bicycle required extensive repairs. Literally the 1st case study in the article. I just stopped there. If your title is about deaths maybe start with that.
- kodapoda 3y agoAre you complaining that they didn't mention someone's death in the first sentence? If you are curious, they do have a link to an article with more stats in the third paragraph (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/unsafe-streets-the-dangers-facing-pedestrians/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/unsafe-streets-the-dangers-faci...).
- djaouen 3y agoIt’s dangerous, man. I don’t own a vehicle myself, so when I walk to the store, I have to be extra careful when crossing the intersections. :|
- peterlk 3y agoOh! One of my favorite soap boxes! How about instead of making laws more restrictive for drivers, we change car regulations so that everyone isn’t driving a tank. Pedestrian deaths are on the rise because windows are smaller, cars are heavier, grills are larger, etc. Just start taxing tanks more heavily. Or, even easier, scale back subsidies for trucks
- willcipriano 3y agoWe have already made pedestrians bigger to compensate.
- eyelidlessness 3y agoWhy not also make traffic laws stricter where vehicles and pedestrians intersect? It’s not like the right on red rule came from on high, or represents some innate personal freedom. It’s just added competition between vehicles and pedestrians for right of way, and even the tiniest, safest vehicles “win” that competition in the worst way.
- c22 3y agoThere's no competition here, the pedestrian has the right of way. Just start actually enforcing it. Use those red light cameras and send a ticket to anyone who cuts off a pedestrian or fails to come to a complete stop before turning.
- eyelidlessness 3y agoUm. I think you’ve misunderstood my point. By the time any ticket is issued, the driver has already either hit a pedestrian or used the vehicle’s superior weight and velocity to threaten same (“won” the “competition”). Sure, they’re breaking the rule which already exists, but it’s far less likely to happen if both vehicles and pedestrians aren’t expected to share the same space in the same traffic phase.
- c22 3y ago
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoThe gold standard would be green fully regulated right turns (no right on red or normal green, instead right on a green arrow that excludes pedestrians crossing). I lived in Lausanne which had this, it worked well.
- kodapoda 3y agoI notice all the time how dangerous the shared right turn/pedestrian GO green light is. Both as a driver and as a pedestrian. Would be interesting to see stats on these accidents too.
- ShadowBanThis01 3y agoMore do-nothing bullshit that fails to address the real cause of pedestrian (and other) deaths: TEXTING. Until texting while driving is made a DUI-level offense, with the same penalties, this is a bunch of posturing and theft from law-abiding drivers.
- kodapoda 3y agoWell, texting falls into the same broad category. The real cause is driver inattention. Banning right turn on red is a good way to ensure that distracted drivers endanger pedestrians less.
- ShadowBanThis01 3y agoThen we might as well just ban driving, if people aren't paying attention in the middle of a turn.
- thecopy 3y agoSounds good to me
- acdha 3y agoWe should make it much rarer: part of why we have so many people killed or seriously injured by drivers is that we’ve been unwilling to enforce laws or take away licenses, and every bad driver knows that. If there was a high chance that, say, being seen texting, blowing a light, etc. meant your car would be impounded for 6 months it’d magically turn out that Tik Tok can wait until you’re out of the car.
- ShadowBanThis01 3y agoExactly. But instead, we steal from ALL drivers to inexplicably pander to the unredeemable. People who can't or refuse to drive properly should be removed from the road, period.
- kodapoda 3y ago
- kylehotchkiss 3y agoWhile we’re at it, kill the green circle left turn light which still seem to tempt weary drivers into colliding with oncoming traffic. I recently was in Virginia who changed a lot of those into flashing yellow arrows.
- Tostino 3y agoWow that seems confusing. I know I would have been scratching my head at what a green left arrow with a circle around it meant different that a regular green left arrow. Would not have thought that it was equivalent of flashing yellow.
- naryJane 3y agoParent comment is describing a solid green light (which is/was equivalent to flashing yellow). Never seen a green circle around a green arrow - lived in VA 20+ years
- yostrovs 3y agoWhy does the yellow arrow have to flash? It confuses me because I don't know if the yellow is off or just flashing every time it goes dim.
- windows2020 3y agoFlashing yellow left arrows remove the ambiguity that creates 'yellow trap' and also reduce cycle waste by permitting left turns when opposing traffic has extended green.
- Agingcoder 3y agoJust so I understand ( I’m not from the US) : the traffic light says red, pedestrian light says green, and car is allowed to turn ? If so, this is an obvious recipe for disaster.
- kmlx 3y ago> the traffic light says red, pedestrian light says green, and car is allowed to turn turn right, yes. > If so, this is an obvious recipe for disaster. i've driven quite a bit in the US (not from around there), but from what i've seen it depends on population density, walking infrastructure, traffic etc. i would say that for most places this isn't an issue (most places don't even have sidewalks), but in cities with higher density you will encounter a situation where the car that is turning also needs to wait for the pedestrian to cross. on a side note, i've noticed the same thing in certain countries in Europe, but it felt a lot more dangerous: entering an intersection where you need to turn left: you first need to yield to oncoming cars, and then surprise, you immediately need to yield again to pedestrians that also have a green light. so you need to accelerate to turn left, and then immediately stop for pedestrians. i prefer the UK way: when the intersection has traffic lights either pedestrians or cars can move. there's no overlap, there's no intersecting pathways. it leads to longer wait times for everyone, but much improved safety. as a driver i won't have to look out for pedestrians, and vice-versa when i'm walking.
- tssva 3y agoThe car is allowed to turn right after coming to a complete stop and yielding to any pedestrians in the crosswalk.
- RamblingCTO 3y agoI don't think you can say this in general. In Germany we also have this but only when indicated with a metal green arrow. You still need to stop and turn red. Of course nobody does it. But this is only sparingly allowed where almost no pedestrians are. So using this selectively might help.
- ChrisArchitect 3y agoMore discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38147864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38147864