4 ms·

Anti-Zionism is not antisemitism.

reducesuffering 3y ago
Some purported anti-Zionism is antisemitism. https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/reprehensible-protestors-chant-gas-the-jews-outside-sydney-opera-house/amp/ https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/reprehensible-protestors-chant... For example, 2/3 sample of Lebanese, Israel’s next door neighbors, answered probably true to “Jews are responsible for most of the world's wars” https://global100.adl.org/map https://global100.adl.org/map
- Paul-Craft 3y ago
  You haven't made the point you're claiming to make. That some anti-Zionists are antisemetic does not imply in any way that anti-Zionism is antisemitism.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    > does not imply in any way that anti-Zionism is antisemitism Well he never argues that it necessarily does. You should be happy about that. You agree.
  - reducesuffering 3y ago
    No it doesn't imply causally, but you'll be mostly in antisemetic company. For your logical consistency, make sure that when a white nationalist is claimed to be white supremacist, you're there to defend the distinction. Because the minority that are about nationalism instead of hate is similar and what you're debating. What's that saying leftists and antifascists loved until a few weeks ago? "if there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis." Leftist protestors sure went from "punch a Nazi in the face" to "gas the jews" real quick.
- sertbdfgbnfgsd 3y ago
  > Some purported anti-Zionism is antisemitism. I'm pretty sure the parent meant to say "Anti-zionism does not imply antisemitism".
  - jjgreen 3y ago
    And antisemetism does not imply antizionism: one might dislike Jews so want them out of Europe, so some desert in the middle-East would be ideal. Some argue that the Nazis held this position pre-war.
    - sertbdfgbnfgsd 3y ago
      > And antisemetism does not imply antizionism Why is this relevant though? Saying "antizionism does not imply antisemitism" is relevant because a lot of people think it does. But no one thinks that "antisemitism implies antizionism".
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
nonethewiser 3y ago
This seems irrelevant to the post.
bsaul 3y ago
That’s not what this statement said. Unless by ‘anti-sionism’ you mean to refuse this country the right to exist at all. In which case yes, the germany vice chancelor said this was not allowed in germany. But then it’s not a problem, there’s a lot of arab countries that give you the right to express this opinion. Not all countries have the same red line regarding hate speech.
yostrovs 3y ago
As you may know, Jews have lived under the whims of others for at least 2,000 years. Regularly they were subject to oppression, murder, and savagery by their neighbors. Then the Holocaust happened. Israel as a nation was formed as a result, as a promise to Jewish people to have a home of their own that will protect them. To hope for the destruction of the state of Israel (anti-Zionism) is to hope to have Jews again be subject to unchecked savagery for the next 2,000 years. Even in Germany now it is scary to be openly Jewish, doing Jewish things, as the vice chancellor noted. It may technically be correct to say that anti-Zionism is not antisemitism, in terms of language structure and precise meaning of words, but anti-Zionism leads to anti-Jewish consequences.
- jacknews 3y ago
  "Regularly they were subject to oppression, murder, and savagery by their neighbors." The problem seems to be that Israel, the victim, has become the perpetrator.
brap 3y ago
What do you think zionism means?
T-A 3y ago
Threatening and attacking Jews who don't even live in Israel is not "anti-Zionism".
ClaraForm 3y ago
I have the same thought as you in relation to what I just heard. 60% of the message had to be delivered to reinforce Germany's responsibilities, and the last 40% was great “both sidism” that I would want to hear. My only reservation is that the line of where “criticism of Israel” jumps into “antisemetic rhetoric” seems to be defined by the listener rather than the speaker. How can one express a pro-Zionist, anti-Zionist action, pro-Palestinian autonomy, anti-Hamas action opinion without being called a hypocrite by someone somewhere? It’s not an insane position to hold, but listeners always want to define the speaker as supporting some kind of heinous past.

Some purported anti-Zionism is antisemitism. https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/reprehensible-protestors-chant-gas-the-jews-outside-sydney-opera-house/amp/ https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/reprehensible-protestors-chant... For example, 2/3 sample of Lebanese, Israel’s next door neighbors, answered probably true to “Jews are responsible for most of the world's wars” https://global100.adl.org/map https://global100.adl.org/map

Paul-Craft 3y ago
You haven't made the point you're claiming to make. That some anti-Zionists are antisemetic does not imply in any way that anti-Zionism is antisemitism.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  > does not imply in any way that anti-Zionism is antisemitism Well he never argues that it necessarily does. You should be happy about that. You agree.
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  No it doesn't imply causally, but you'll be mostly in antisemetic company. For your logical consistency, make sure that when a white nationalist is claimed to be white supremacist, you're there to defend the distinction. Because the minority that are about nationalism instead of hate is similar and what you're debating. What's that saying leftists and antifascists loved until a few weeks ago? "if there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis." Leftist protestors sure went from "punch a Nazi in the face" to "gas the jews" real quick.
sertbdfgbnfgsd 3y ago
> Some purported anti-Zionism is antisemitism. I'm pretty sure the parent meant to say "Anti-zionism does not imply antisemitism".
- jjgreen 3y ago
  And antisemetism does not imply antizionism: one might dislike Jews so want them out of Europe, so some desert in the middle-East would be ideal. Some argue that the Nazis held this position pre-war.
  - sertbdfgbnfgsd 3y ago
    > And antisemetism does not imply antizionism Why is this relevant though? Saying "antizionism does not imply antisemitism" is relevant because a lot of people think it does. But no one thinks that "antisemitism implies antizionism".
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

nonethewiser 3y ago

This seems irrelevant to the post.

bsaul 3y ago

That’s not what this statement said. Unless by ‘anti-sionism’ you mean to refuse this country the right to exist at all. In which case yes, the germany vice chancelor said this was not allowed in germany. But then it’s not a problem, there’s a lot of arab countries that give you the right to express this opinion. Not all countries have the same red line regarding hate speech.

yostrovs 3y ago

As you may know, Jews have lived under the whims of others for at least 2,000 years. Regularly they were subject to oppression, murder, and savagery by their neighbors. Then the Holocaust happened. Israel as a nation was formed as a result, as a promise to Jewish people to have a home of their own that will protect them. To hope for the destruction of the state of Israel (anti-Zionism) is to hope to have Jews again be subject to unchecked savagery for the next 2,000 years. Even in Germany now it is scary to be openly Jewish, doing Jewish things, as the vice chancellor noted. It may technically be correct to say that anti-Zionism is not antisemitism, in terms of language structure and precise meaning of words, but anti-Zionism leads to anti-Jewish consequences.

jacknews 3y ago
"Regularly they were subject to oppression, murder, and savagery by their neighbors." The problem seems to be that Israel, the victim, has become the perpetrator.

brap 3y ago

What do you think zionism means?

T-A 3y ago

Threatening and attacking Jews who don't even live in Israel is not "anti-Zionism".

ClaraForm 3y ago

I have the same thought as you in relation to what I just heard. 60% of the message had to be delivered to reinforce Germany's responsibilities, and the last 40% was great “both sidism” that I would want to hear. My only reservation is that the line of where “criticism of Israel” jumps into “antisemetic rhetoric” seems to be defined by the listener rather than the speaker. How can one express a pro-Zionist, anti-Zionist action, pro-Palestinian autonomy, anti-Hamas action opinion without being called a hypocrite by someone somewhere? It’s not an insane position to hold, but listeners always want to define the speaker as supporting some kind of heinous past.