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It's the coercive nature by which wealth is redistributed to other people that brings upon the questions of morality. If I'm forced at the end of a barrel of a

It's the coercive nature by which wealth is redistributed to other people that brings upon the questions of morality. If I'm forced at the end of a barrel of a gun to give up any portion of the fruits of my labor to support others, it is immoral.

Podgajski 3y ago
That’s what you have to do when peoples hearts are spiritually dead. Otherwise, the people who have nothing will rise up against you anyway.
danbruc 3y ago
If the majority of people in your country agrees that wealth redistribution is bad, then just elect a government that will stop doing it.
- caskstrength 3y ago
  > If the majority of people in your country agrees that wealth redistribution is bad, then just elect a government that will stop doing it. That is why they (the upper class) came up with progressive taxes - so middle class (the minority) would subsidize lower classes (the majority). Basically you suggest a pack of wolves and a ship to democratically decide who will be eaten for dinner.
- mopenstein 3y ago
  Voting is immoral too. If I don't support the potential outcome, how could I justify participating? Here's a scenario for you: 11 people in a room. They decide to take a majority vote to murder one of the 11 at random. What's your vote? No? What happens in the case you're outvoted? You are now complicit in murder. Vote yes? You are now complicit in murder. Casting your vote is your acknowledgement that the you accept the results. The only moral action is to object, conscientiously and refuse to participate. Now stand in a room of 300,000,000 people where the end result of your participation is endless evil and murder. Congratulations.
kuschku 3y ago
If they are truly just the fruits of your labor, and the society contributed nothing, you are free to move to a zero-tax third world country and live there. And if society did contribute more to your work than these taxes cost — which it likely did, considering you didn't move to a third world country yet — then society is free to take its fair share in return.
- mopenstein 3y ago
  Why is coercion the chosen course and not voluntarism? I actually like your reply the most. You almost proudly admit to being in favor of violence against your fellow man but didn't quite get there. I'll help finish your thought: > then society is free to take its fair share in return. And if you don't give up what society thinks is fair, then society will imprison you and if you resist their agents, society will authorize them to kill you.
  - kuschku 3y ago
    You are again free to leave. It's a relatively simple social contract. If you take something from society, you'll have to pay for it. If I go into a walmart and take products off the shelf, Walmart also expects that I'll pay, and will enforce that under threat of violence. I'd gladly switch to a voluntarism based society, but it turns out the vast majority that claims to support voluntarism just wants to take advantage of society without paying for it.
imtringued 3y ago
I don't know what to tell you, but according to that standard the only solution to avoiding your kind of coercion is to kill yourself or end the universe. 1. Your parents gave birth to you, so they are the source of you feeling that something is just or unjust. Go complain to them that they brought you into this universe. 2. Take away the guns of the government. End result: other people still have guns. Organized violence by the government turns into non organized violence and you don't even get to vote. What if this results in more coercion? 3. Take away the guns of everyone. Guns aren't the only thing that can kill you. You are embedded in the laws of nature and are mortal. Therefore, the origin of that mortality must be erased, either by ending the laws of physics or by going to an afterlife. Oh, by the way, if you eat meat or animal products, then you are worse than the thing you complain about, because we are literally stealing the fruits of their labor, including their body.
- mopenstein 3y ago
  1. I should complain to my parents that you gathered a gang of thugs and sent them to rob me? That doesn't make sense. 2. How about take away the government? 3. Why are you obsessed with guns? Is it because I used the word gun? Feel free to replace the word 'gun' with rocks, sharpened sticks, nuclear weapons, fists, etc. I get what you're saying "by the way". The weak should be subjugated at the feet of the strong. In your scenario human beings are the "meat and animals" and the government are the epitome of the evolvoled being.
yuppie_scum 3y ago
You’re selfish.
- mopenstein 3y ago
  In your opinion the penalty for selfishness is death?
broscillator 3y ago
The whole point of society is to be able to support those who can't support themselves. It's not to have a pool of resources from which you can accumulate and hold on to as many resources as you can. If you are able at all to give up any portion of the fruits of your labor you should be grateful for the conditions set up before you that allowed you to reach such place.
- mopenstein 3y ago
  >The whole point of society is to be able to support those who can't support themselves. And the only way to do that is to threaten those that can support themselves with imprisonment and death if they don't support the weak? There's no other way where people might voluntarily help those people? You don't see the hyprocisy? >It's not to have a pool of resources from which you can accumulate and hold on to as many resources as you can. And violence is the only solution. >If you are able at all to give up any portion of the fruits of your labor you should be grateful for the conditions set up before you that allowed you to reach such place. Because my parents and grandparents where coerced, I should be grateful and repay them with more coercion?
  - broscillator 3y ago
    I said nothing of the sort, you're arguing against something I didn't posit. And nothing of what you said really justifies the selfishness you extolled on your previous comment.
dartharva 3y ago
The fruits of your labor have already been facilitated a lot by the labor of others - you have received education, lived in an urban area with modern infrastructure and availed various public facilities from water to transportation at the cost of other people's efforts. Were you immoral then?
- mopenstein 3y ago
  What? You're not addressing my point at all. You're just rambling trying to justify your position. No one ever simply admits to being in favor violence and murder towards their fellow man. Just admit it instead of diverting and attempting an attack on the person presenting the position. You love that the State sticks guns into peoples faces and forces them to fund the endeavors you support. Can you even do that?

Podgajski 3y ago

That’s what you have to do when peoples hearts are spiritually dead. Otherwise, the people who have nothing will rise up against you anyway.

danbruc 3y ago

If the majority of people in your country agrees that wealth redistribution is bad, then just elect a government that will stop doing it.

caskstrength 3y ago
> If the majority of people in your country agrees that wealth redistribution is bad, then just elect a government that will stop doing it. That is why they (the upper class) came up with progressive taxes - so middle class (the minority) would subsidize lower classes (the majority). Basically you suggest a pack of wolves and a ship to democratically decide who will be eaten for dinner.
mopenstein 3y ago
Voting is immoral too. If I don't support the potential outcome, how could I justify participating? Here's a scenario for you: 11 people in a room. They decide to take a majority vote to murder one of the 11 at random. What's your vote? No? What happens in the case you're outvoted? You are now complicit in murder. Vote yes? You are now complicit in murder. Casting your vote is your acknowledgement that the you accept the results. The only moral action is to object, conscientiously and refuse to participate. Now stand in a room of 300,000,000 people where the end result of your participation is endless evil and murder. Congratulations.

kuschku 3y ago

If they are truly just the fruits of your labor, and the society contributed nothing, you are free to move to a zero-tax third world country and live there. And if society did contribute more to your work than these taxes cost — which it likely did, considering you didn't move to a third world country yet — then society is free to take its fair share in return.

mopenstein 3y ago
Why is coercion the chosen course and not voluntarism? I actually like your reply the most. You almost proudly admit to being in favor of violence against your fellow man but didn't quite get there. I'll help finish your thought: > then society is free to take its fair share in return. And if you don't give up what society thinks is fair, then society will imprison you and if you resist their agents, society will authorize them to kill you.
- kuschku 3y ago
  You are again free to leave. It's a relatively simple social contract. If you take something from society, you'll have to pay for it. If I go into a walmart and take products off the shelf, Walmart also expects that I'll pay, and will enforce that under threat of violence. I'd gladly switch to a voluntarism based society, but it turns out the vast majority that claims to support voluntarism just wants to take advantage of society without paying for it.

imtringued 3y ago

I don't know what to tell you, but according to that standard the only solution to avoiding your kind of coercion is to kill yourself or end the universe. 1. Your parents gave birth to you, so they are the source of you feeling that something is just or unjust. Go complain to them that they brought you into this universe. 2. Take away the guns of the government. End result: other people still have guns. Organized violence by the government turns into non organized violence and you don't even get to vote. What if this results in more coercion? 3. Take away the guns of everyone. Guns aren't the only thing that can kill you. You are embedded in the laws of nature and are mortal. Therefore, the origin of that mortality must be erased, either by ending the laws of physics or by going to an afterlife. Oh, by the way, if you eat meat or animal products, then you are worse than the thing you complain about, because we are literally stealing the fruits of their labor, including their body.

mopenstein 3y ago
1. I should complain to my parents that you gathered a gang of thugs and sent them to rob me? That doesn't make sense. 2. How about take away the government? 3. Why are you obsessed with guns? Is it because I used the word gun? Feel free to replace the word 'gun' with rocks, sharpened sticks, nuclear weapons, fists, etc. I get what you're saying "by the way". The weak should be subjugated at the feet of the strong. In your scenario human beings are the "meat and animals" and the government are the epitome of the evolvoled being.

yuppie_scum 3y ago

You’re selfish.

mopenstein 3y ago
In your opinion the penalty for selfishness is death?

broscillator 3y ago

The whole point of society is to be able to support those who can't support themselves. It's not to have a pool of resources from which you can accumulate and hold on to as many resources as you can. If you are able at all to give up any portion of the fruits of your labor you should be grateful for the conditions set up before you that allowed you to reach such place.

mopenstein 3y ago
>The whole point of society is to be able to support those who can't support themselves. And the only way to do that is to threaten those that can support themselves with imprisonment and death if they don't support the weak? There's no other way where people might voluntarily help those people? You don't see the hyprocisy? >It's not to have a pool of resources from which you can accumulate and hold on to as many resources as you can. And violence is the only solution. >If you are able at all to give up any portion of the fruits of your labor you should be grateful for the conditions set up before you that allowed you to reach such place. Because my parents and grandparents where coerced, I should be grateful and repay them with more coercion?
- broscillator 3y ago
  I said nothing of the sort, you're arguing against something I didn't posit. And nothing of what you said really justifies the selfishness you extolled on your previous comment.

dartharva 3y ago

The fruits of your labor have already been facilitated a lot by the labor of others - you have received education, lived in an urban area with modern infrastructure and availed various public facilities from water to transportation at the cost of other people's efforts. Were you immoral then?

mopenstein 3y ago
What? You're not addressing my point at all. You're just rambling trying to justify your position. No one ever simply admits to being in favor violence and murder towards their fellow man. Just admit it instead of diverting and attempting an attack on the person presenting the position. You love that the State sticks guns into peoples faces and forces them to fund the endeavors you support. Can you even do that?