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> I didn’t mention my other reasons for wanting to stay in Minnesota because it wasn’t the reviewers’ business; normally, employers aren’t allowed to ask about

> I didn’t mention my other reasons for wanting to stay in Minnesota because it wasn’t the reviewers’ business; normally, employers aren’t allowed to ask about spouses or children. My interview training at Big Tech forbade me from even asking about the candidate's trip to campus because the answer could reveal a disadvantaged socioeconomic status. But universities behave as if employment discrimination laws don't exist. At least they're starting to be held accountable, see this case from the University of Washington: https://www.washington.edu/news/2023/10/31/university-takes-action-after-faculty-hiring-process-inappropriately-used-race-as-a-factor/ https://www.washington.edu/news/2023/10/31/university-takes-...

elashri 3y ago
In this case it wasn't even a university who did that. It is reviewers at the national science foundation. The largest federal funding agency in the US.
- jjtheblunt 3y ago
  Larger than DARPA?
  - otteromkram 3y ago
    Funding, not funded. From Wikipedia: > With an annual budget of about $8.3 billion (fiscal year 2020), the NSF funds approximately 25% of all federally supported basic research conducted by the United States' colleges and universities[0][1]. Note: That budget is ~$10 billion for FY24. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Science_Foundation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Science_Foundation [1] https://new.nsf.gov/about https://new.nsf.gov/about
    - robotresearcher 3y ago
      DARPA is a funding agency. It employs only admin and program management people, only about 300 of them, and spends around $4B a year, dispersing most of it to universities and third party labs. It’s leaner than the NSF, which employs five times as many people and has a budget only twice as large. Probably NSF has a large number of small-dollar grants to track compared to DARPA.
      - topkai22 3y ago
        And neither of them are the largest research funding agency. The National Institute of Health (NIH) granted $30B on a budget of $41B in FY2020.
  - robotresearcher 3y ago
    The NSF budget is roughly double DARPA’s, at ~$8B vs ~$4B in 2022. Yes folks, those numbers are suprisingly small.
mbrumlow 3y ago
Just because big tech does something g does not mean it is driven by law. It’s more likely they simply want to know less, as knowing less can limit liability. Simply put. If you did not know x y or z about the candidate, then the candidate can’t claim z y or z is why they did not get the job, where x y z might be protected. Most of the rules at big tech are simply not driven by laws requiring it. But by layaways limiting liability.
- lolinder 3y ago
  You're drawing a weird distinction here—"it's not about the law, it's about limiting liability should we end up in a lawsuit." Yeah, the law doesn't require avoiding asking specific types of questions, but big tech lawyers recommend being careful because knowing that information can expose you to potential legal liability. The decision to limit how much you know about a candidate's background is a direct side effect of the law and its application, even if the law itself doesn't say you can't know this stuff.
  - watwut 3y ago
    It is an important distinction. Original posts implies the university is breaking the law. There is huge difference between breaking law and not doing the safestest easiest to win in court thing.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      The original post doesn't just imply that universities are breaking the law, it links to a post by a university where they acknowledge they were breaking the law: > The review was completed in September and indicates that race was inappropriately considered and used in a way that is inconsistent with University policy in the hiring process for an assistant professor position in the department. Race was inappropriately considered in the hiring process even after some faculty received guidance from College of Arts & Sciences and University leadership that such considerations are inappropriate. So in this case the distinction is meaningless because the GP was literally saying "big tech has tons of barriers up in place, but universities seem not to care very much until someone actually calls them out for breaking the law".
thatfrenchguy 3y ago
> My interview training at Big Tech forbade me from even asking about the candidate's trip to campus because the answer could reveal a disadvantaged socioeconomic status. I mean, candidates put their university, new grads often put their high schools, that can easily tell you whether they come from the upper class.
pests 3y ago
> [..] could reveal a disadvantaged socioeconomic status. Does Google provide any kind of "interview fund" to the applicant? Otherwise the mere fact of being there - flights, hotels, travel - says a lot about the applicants socioeconomic status. Just a 3 day trip (hotel, car, flight) to MV from my area is starting at $1500 - $3000 from a quick look around. Is the worry they are going to reveal that they just hitchhiked or spent the last 100 hours on a Grayhound and walked to the campus from the bus stop?
- janosdebugs 3y ago
  I interviewed with them a few years ago and they reimbursed everything for the on-site. I can't remember if they also offered to pay up front if needed.
  - pests 3y ago
    Thanks for the answer. Re-reading my comment I think my tone was more snarky than I intended as it was an honest question. That is good to hear. Glad they are helping out like that.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  What company doesn’t reimburse interview trip expenses?
  - pests 3y ago
    You might be inadvertently showing your lack of socioeconomic disadvantage with this question. Maybe you meant "technology company" or "SV company" but.. Lots of companies? If you search for "interview expense reimbursement" there are tons of articles informing people of how to ask the company about reimbursement or figuring out who is paying and other general confusion to how this works for the standard person.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Or any college educated job? My dad went through his career with a two year technical degree and even when the nuclear industry imploded in the 80s, companies still paid to fly/him out to whatever nuclear plant was looking to hire. It doesn’t get cheaper than the power generation industry.

elashri 3y ago

In this case it wasn't even a university who did that. It is reviewers at the national science foundation. The largest federal funding agency in the US.

jjtheblunt 3y ago
Larger than DARPA?
- otteromkram 3y ago
  Funding, not funded. From Wikipedia: > With an annual budget of about $8.3 billion (fiscal year 2020), the NSF funds approximately 25% of all federally supported basic research conducted by the United States' colleges and universities[0][1]. Note: That budget is ~$10 billion for FY24. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Science_Foundation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Science_Foundation [1] https://new.nsf.gov/about https://new.nsf.gov/about
  - robotresearcher 3y ago
    DARPA is a funding agency. It employs only admin and program management people, only about 300 of them, and spends around $4B a year, dispersing most of it to universities and third party labs. It’s leaner than the NSF, which employs five times as many people and has a budget only twice as large. Probably NSF has a large number of small-dollar grants to track compared to DARPA.
    - topkai22 3y ago
      And neither of them are the largest research funding agency. The National Institute of Health (NIH) granted $30B on a budget of $41B in FY2020.
- robotresearcher 3y ago
  The NSF budget is roughly double DARPA’s, at ~$8B vs ~$4B in 2022. Yes folks, those numbers are suprisingly small.

mbrumlow 3y ago

Just because big tech does something g does not mean it is driven by law. It’s more likely they simply want to know less, as knowing less can limit liability. Simply put. If you did not know x y or z about the candidate, then the candidate can’t claim z y or z is why they did not get the job, where x y z might be protected. Most of the rules at big tech are simply not driven by laws requiring it. But by layaways limiting liability.

lolinder 3y ago
You're drawing a weird distinction here—"it's not about the law, it's about limiting liability should we end up in a lawsuit." Yeah, the law doesn't require avoiding asking specific types of questions, but big tech lawyers recommend being careful because knowing that information can expose you to potential legal liability. The decision to limit how much you know about a candidate's background is a direct side effect of the law and its application, even if the law itself doesn't say you can't know this stuff.
- watwut 3y ago
  It is an important distinction. Original posts implies the university is breaking the law. There is huge difference between breaking law and not doing the safestest easiest to win in court thing.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    The original post doesn't just imply that universities are breaking the law, it links to a post by a university where they acknowledge they were breaking the law: > The review was completed in September and indicates that race was inappropriately considered and used in a way that is inconsistent with University policy in the hiring process for an assistant professor position in the department. Race was inappropriately considered in the hiring process even after some faculty received guidance from College of Arts & Sciences and University leadership that such considerations are inappropriate. So in this case the distinction is meaningless because the GP was literally saying "big tech has tons of barriers up in place, but universities seem not to care very much until someone actually calls them out for breaking the law".

thatfrenchguy 3y ago

> My interview training at Big Tech forbade me from even asking about the candidate's trip to campus because the answer could reveal a disadvantaged socioeconomic status. I mean, candidates put their university, new grads often put their high schools, that can easily tell you whether they come from the upper class.

pests 3y ago

> [..] could reveal a disadvantaged socioeconomic status. Does Google provide any kind of "interview fund" to the applicant? Otherwise the mere fact of being there - flights, hotels, travel - says a lot about the applicants socioeconomic status. Just a 3 day trip (hotel, car, flight) to MV from my area is starting at $1500 - $3000 from a quick look around. Is the worry they are going to reveal that they just hitchhiked or spent the last 100 hours on a Grayhound and walked to the campus from the bus stop?

janosdebugs 3y ago
I interviewed with them a few years ago and they reimbursed everything for the on-site. I can't remember if they also offered to pay up front if needed.
- pests 3y ago
  Thanks for the answer. Re-reading my comment I think my tone was more snarky than I intended as it was an honest question. That is good to hear. Glad they are helping out like that.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
What company doesn’t reimburse interview trip expenses?
- pests 3y ago
  You might be inadvertently showing your lack of socioeconomic disadvantage with this question. Maybe you meant "technology company" or "SV company" but.. Lots of companies? If you search for "interview expense reimbursement" there are tons of articles informing people of how to ask the company about reimbursement or figuring out who is paying and other general confusion to how this works for the standard person.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Or any college educated job? My dad went through his career with a two year technical degree and even when the nuclear industry imploded in the 80s, companies still paid to fly/him out to whatever nuclear plant was looking to hire. It doesn’t get cheaper than the power generation industry.