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The amount of salt many places in the Northeast US use is unreal. It's at least partially part of a cycle of dysfunctional political incentives, wherein many of

The amount of salt many places in the Northeast US use is unreal. It's at least partially part of a cycle of dysfunctional political incentives, wherein many of the states that dump millions of tons of salt on the roads should have requirements that vehicles be equipped with winter tires, but adding additional costs and barriers to driving is considered unfair because we've designed so much of our built environment to simply require a car to go anywhere. So, we have people out there driving around year round on bald summer tires, and to make sure they don't kill themselves or cause major issues, turning the roads "black and wet" with loads of salt becomes the solution. It's totally unsurprising that the salt is harmful to the environment. I imagine that saving people the expense of winter tires in this way may actually be a false economy, given that the salt rapidly accelerates the destruction of cars themselves and the concrete infrastructure it's applied to. Politicians largely don't want to touch this issue, I think, because they're often the target of blame when the roads are insufficiently cleared and people have trouble getting around. As an example: several years ago in NYC, a sudden snowstorm caused devastating gridlock around the city and the mayor was dragged over the coals. In response, for the rest of that winter, whenever there was even a hint of a chance of snow, the city would preemptively put down an extraordinary amount of salt. At one point that winter, I stepped out of my office and the street was completely covered thick layer of salt, which was being pulverized by traffic into a dense cloud that looked like heavy fog. Just walking around the air tasted strongly salty. It never snowed, or even rained, so all of that salt just sat there for days.

mikestew 3y ago
given that the salt rapidly accelerates the destruction of cars themselves... Moving from Indiana to the Pacific Northwest illustrated an amazing difference between salted roads and not. Indiana: right after you buy your car, take it to a "rust-proofing" place to have tar oil sprayed underneath, and inside door panels. Your Toyota will still rust out, but at least it will take a good ten years. PNW? "How does that late-70s Datsun B210 not have holes in the quarter panels? What's with all these pristine cars from 20 years ago? They should have rusted to the frame by now." And our going-on-20-years-old Toyota/Scion xB doesn't have a flake of rust on it, despite us not taking the best car of the exterior finish. Now, granted, it could have been in the intervening time that galvanized coatings or whatever have gotten better. But you'll have a hard time convincing me that it isn't the road salt that makes the difference.
- mattpallissard 3y ago
  That may have been true in the past, but they brine a lot of the roads in PNW now
  - monknomo 3y ago
    I used to live in a place that switched from salt to brine, and brine is much, much gentler on cars. They used to last maybe 5 years, and now 10-15 before the rust gets them is much more common
    - BlueTemplar 3y ago
      But brine is just water with a lot of salt ??
      - monknomo 3y ago
        I know, right? I don't really understand it, but my guess is that the salt crystals (big, pea sized rocks) are more readily stuck into cavities in the body and frames and they sit there forever, where the brine washes off. I also wonder if the brine is more efficient and uses less salt? No knowledge, just anecdata here
        NortySpock 3y ago
        Might be easier running the connectors for water sprayers rather than gravel coming out of a chute with a spinning disk to scatter the grains of salt? Not an expert either :)
- nerdponx 3y ago
  Is it different in Indiana from in the Northeast? I've never heard of someone actually getting a rust proofing treatment on their car. I know that I'm supposed to get a couple car washes during and after the winter season to get the salt off, but that's as much as (or more than) most people do here. That said, unless it's a particularly snowy or icy winter, the roads themselves are usually clear on any given day (in part due to aggressive plowing and salting during and after storms). So maybe if the difference between consistent precipitation and intermittent big dumpings of snow or freezing rain.
gs17 3y ago
>given that the salt rapidly accelerates the destruction of cars themselves It's bad, I genuinely may have to drive my car back up to Michigan to get work done because the dealers in the south don't understand that my car really isn't so rusty for having been through multiple Detroit winters.
slabity 3y ago
> Politicians largely don't want to touch this issue, I think, because they're often the target of blame when the roads are insufficiently cleared and people have trouble getting around. I think they don't want to touch this issue because it's really hard to solve. You can write a law saying all vehicles need winterized tires during that time of year. But how exactly would you enforce it? We already struggle to enforce something as simple as an outdated inspection sticker which can be determined at a glance on the road. How exactly would you enforce something that can't be determined as easily? Without the ability to enforce this sort of law, reducing or eliminating road salt would result in far more traffic, accidents, injuries, and deaths.
- krger 3y ago
  >You can write a law saying all vehicles need winterized tires during that time of year. As a matter of fact, Quebec already has one[1]. >But how exactly would you enforce it? The easiest way is probably similar to inspection sticker enforcement: by having the responding officer check the tires whenever a driver goes off the road, gets in an accident, or is otherwise pulled over. No winter tires? Enjoy a fat fine. Will some drivers get away with it? Of course. You're never going to get 100% compliance. There are still people who live in states other than New Hampshire that still don't wear their seat belts. [1]: https://www.quebec.ca/en/transports/traffic-road-safety/driving-in-winter/requirements-for-winter-tires https://www.quebec.ca/en/transports/traffic-road-safety/driv...
  - Ichthypresbyter 3y ago
    >As a matter of fact, Quebec already has one. So does Colorado [0], though only on certain roads. It's always in effect from September to May on I-70 west of Denver, and the state police can put it into effect on other roads when needed. Though it's not great in terms of requirements- 4WD vehicles don't need winter tires, and M+S rated tires are considered sufficient on a 2WD vehicle. [0]https://www.codot.gov/travel/winter-driving/tractionlaw https://www.codot.gov/travel/winter-driving/tractionlaw
- macNchz 3y ago
  As the other poster pointed out, compliance with winter tire rules is a solved problem, as it is done in Quebec and various parts of Europe. That said, what I was trying to say there is that politicians don't want to touch the "too much salt" issue–not the tires issue–because at least so far, it's been like buying IBM: "nobody gets fired for telling the DOT to go hogwild with the salt". They only get bad press if they're not perceived to have done enough to get the roads clear.
oivey 3y ago
I think in some sense requiring winter tires is optimal, but I think the heavily car centric transportation introduces other issues. Say you require winter tires, someone loses their job, and now they can’t afford to get the tires or the maintenance to swap them on. Now being poor additionally means they can’t travel very well during the winter, which may even prevent them from finding new employment.
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  This problem exists now but with rust instead of tires.
  - oivey 3y ago
    No, it doesn’t. A rusty car still drives.
vivekd 3y ago
There are cheap winter tires available for 90 bucks a tire in Canada, probably cheaper in the states. There are places that offer financing on tires. We require insurance which is expensive. There's no excuse not to require winter tires, it's a basic safety requirement. Driving without winter tires is just dangerous. It doesn't matter how much salt they put on the roads. The issue is that winter tires are made of a material that grips better in cold temperatures where ordinary tires don't grip as well when temperatures drop.

mikestew 3y ago

given that the salt rapidly accelerates the destruction of cars themselves... Moving from Indiana to the Pacific Northwest illustrated an amazing difference between salted roads and not. Indiana: right after you buy your car, take it to a "rust-proofing" place to have tar oil sprayed underneath, and inside door panels. Your Toyota will still rust out, but at least it will take a good ten years. PNW? "How does that late-70s Datsun B210 not have holes in the quarter panels? What's with all these pristine cars from 20 years ago? They should have rusted to the frame by now." And our going-on-20-years-old Toyota/Scion xB doesn't have a flake of rust on it, despite us not taking the best car of the exterior finish. Now, granted, it could have been in the intervening time that galvanized coatings or whatever have gotten better. But you'll have a hard time convincing me that it isn't the road salt that makes the difference.

mattpallissard 3y ago
That may have been true in the past, but they brine a lot of the roads in PNW now
- monknomo 3y ago
  I used to live in a place that switched from salt to brine, and brine is much, much gentler on cars. They used to last maybe 5 years, and now 10-15 before the rust gets them is much more common
  - BlueTemplar 3y ago
    But brine is just water with a lot of salt ??
    - monknomo 3y ago
      I know, right? I don't really understand it, but my guess is that the salt crystals (big, pea sized rocks) are more readily stuck into cavities in the body and frames and they sit there forever, where the brine washes off. I also wonder if the brine is more efficient and uses less salt? No knowledge, just anecdata here
      - NortySpock 3y ago
        Might be easier running the connectors for water sprayers rather than gravel coming out of a chute with a spinning disk to scatter the grains of salt? Not an expert either :)
nerdponx 3y ago
Is it different in Indiana from in the Northeast? I've never heard of someone actually getting a rust proofing treatment on their car. I know that I'm supposed to get a couple car washes during and after the winter season to get the salt off, but that's as much as (or more than) most people do here. That said, unless it's a particularly snowy or icy winter, the roads themselves are usually clear on any given day (in part due to aggressive plowing and salting during and after storms). So maybe if the difference between consistent precipitation and intermittent big dumpings of snow or freezing rain.

gs17 3y ago

>given that the salt rapidly accelerates the destruction of cars themselves It's bad, I genuinely may have to drive my car back up to Michigan to get work done because the dealers in the south don't understand that my car really isn't so rusty for having been through multiple Detroit winters.

slabity 3y ago

> Politicians largely don't want to touch this issue, I think, because they're often the target of blame when the roads are insufficiently cleared and people have trouble getting around. I think they don't want to touch this issue because it's really hard to solve. You can write a law saying all vehicles need winterized tires during that time of year. But how exactly would you enforce it? We already struggle to enforce something as simple as an outdated inspection sticker which can be determined at a glance on the road. How exactly would you enforce something that can't be determined as easily? Without the ability to enforce this sort of law, reducing or eliminating road salt would result in far more traffic, accidents, injuries, and deaths.

krger 3y ago
>You can write a law saying all vehicles need winterized tires during that time of year. As a matter of fact, Quebec already has one[1]. >But how exactly would you enforce it? The easiest way is probably similar to inspection sticker enforcement: by having the responding officer check the tires whenever a driver goes off the road, gets in an accident, or is otherwise pulled over. No winter tires? Enjoy a fat fine. Will some drivers get away with it? Of course. You're never going to get 100% compliance. There are still people who live in states other than New Hampshire that still don't wear their seat belts. [1]: https://www.quebec.ca/en/transports/traffic-road-safety/driving-in-winter/requirements-for-winter-tires https://www.quebec.ca/en/transports/traffic-road-safety/driv...
- Ichthypresbyter 3y ago
  >As a matter of fact, Quebec already has one. So does Colorado [0], though only on certain roads. It's always in effect from September to May on I-70 west of Denver, and the state police can put it into effect on other roads when needed. Though it's not great in terms of requirements- 4WD vehicles don't need winter tires, and M+S rated tires are considered sufficient on a 2WD vehicle. [0]https://www.codot.gov/travel/winter-driving/tractionlaw https://www.codot.gov/travel/winter-driving/tractionlaw
macNchz 3y ago
As the other poster pointed out, compliance with winter tire rules is a solved problem, as it is done in Quebec and various parts of Europe. That said, what I was trying to say there is that politicians don't want to touch the "too much salt" issue–not the tires issue–because at least so far, it's been like buying IBM: "nobody gets fired for telling the DOT to go hogwild with the salt". They only get bad press if they're not perceived to have done enough to get the roads clear.

oivey 3y ago

I think in some sense requiring winter tires is optimal, but I think the heavily car centric transportation introduces other issues. Say you require winter tires, someone loses their job, and now they can’t afford to get the tires or the maintenance to swap them on. Now being poor additionally means they can’t travel very well during the winter, which may even prevent them from finding new employment.

actionfromafar 3y ago
This problem exists now but with rust instead of tires.
- oivey 3y ago
  No, it doesn’t. A rusty car still drives.

vivekd 3y ago

There are cheap winter tires available for 90 bucks a tire in Canada, probably cheaper in the states. There are places that offer financing on tires. We require insurance which is expensive. There's no excuse not to require winter tires, it's a basic safety requirement. Driving without winter tires is just dangerous. It doesn't matter how much salt they put on the roads. The issue is that winter tires are made of a material that grips better in cold temperatures where ordinary tires don't grip as well when temperatures drop.