5 ms·

I don't know if you classify misappropriation of government funds, grift, and politically motivated administrative decisions as white collar crime, but that sor

by mxkopy 3y ago

I don't know if you classify misappropriation of government funds, grift, and politically motivated administrative decisions as white collar crime, but that sort of stuff is a large part of the reason for why this sort of thing is culturally acceptable. The Kids for Cash scandal, I think, serves as a good example for why so many people feel disenfranchised - and it's an example of someone with authority in the system getting caught, imagine how many don't.

vorpalhex 3y ago
I don't think 15 year old kids in Chicago are stealing clothes and shoes because of an insider corruption scheme impacting Pennsylvania almost two decades ago.
- orochimaaru 3y ago
  You forgot to add electronics and video games here. I’m sure those fall under the necessities criteria for teenagers these days. A lot of the crime isn’t just necessities. It’s basically stealing to sell on the side.
  - pc86 3y ago
    Absolutely, but the majority of people who are doing that are doing it to buy food and other necessities (or, a step or two removed, to buy drugs to try to sell but for the same end goal - a better life for them and theirs). Yes there are exceptions of course but the people stealing things from Target and CVS are not selling those things to pay for their Mercedes. They're selling them to pay for basic necessities. That doesn't mean it's not a crime, and it shouldn't be punished, but it is a distinction worth noting.
    - vorpalhex 3y ago
      Overwhelmingly shoplifters are white kids with substance abuse problems. They are feeding drug/alcohol problems, not feeding their family. The vast majority of the poor in the US are.. obese. Not fat, but clinically obese. For whatever failings we have, feeding the poor and the masses is not one of them. Typically when kids do "go hungry" they are Middleschoolers or younger with... abusive parents. (Which is why free lunch programs work, it bypasses shitty parents).
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      > Absolutely, but the majority of people who are doing that are doing it to buy food and other necessities (or, a step or two removed, to buy drugs to try to sell but for the same end goal - a better life for them and their I don't think anyone is shoplifting for food, at least in Seattle where food banks are stocked and ask few questions. They do shop lift for drugs, which is why LEGO, baby formula, and laundry detergent sections are locked down at many discount stores. It is shoplifting LEGOs to sell via a fence (this is very organized now) to get money to buy fent (often the shoplifting ring will give you drugs straight for the LEGO set you lifted).
- mxkopy 3y ago
  If you want me to spell it out for you, 15 year old kids in Chicago are stealing clothes and shoes because the effects of slavery have had as-of-yet unaddressed generational effects on people. Schemes like Kids for Cash serve to remind people that things aren't being addressed. Nihilism ensues.
  - vorpalhex 3y ago
    Let's break down a few things here. First, you've made the assumption here that all the shoplifters are black. The data does not support that. Most shoplifters are white kids with drug problems. Second, you've made the assumption here that all Black people in the US are descendents of slaves. That's also incorrect and ignores hundreds of years of migration from a rich variety of countries. Third, no, shoplifters aren't shoplifting because of "generational nihilism". They are feeding drug/alcohol habits.
    - mxkopy 3y ago
      I actually made no statements about the race of the shoplifters. Indeed, I don't think the effects of slavery are isolated to groups of people with a certain skin color. I'm not going to address the first two points you made because they're irrelevant in light of the above. To point three, drug/alcohol habits are often hereditary and communal. Not sure why generational nihilism and feeding drug/alcohol habits are mutually exclusive.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      > Most shoplifters are white kids with drug problems. You keep claiming this without qualification. It is probably very regional, but most shoplifters in my city (Seattle) are mostly white unhoused neighbors who are usually in their 20s-30s and have drug abuse problems. They aren't white suburban kids (although I'm sure it happens in the suburbs, just not in our urban area).
      - vorpalhex 3y ago
        I dropped this cite in a different comment: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4104590/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4104590/ Obviously the shoplifters are going to be a subpopulation of the area they live in - if you live in a predominantly black neighborhood, they will trend to be more black, if you live in an older neighborhood, they will trend to be older, etc etc. But basically the whole benefit of shoplifting is that it solves both your money problem and the "accounting for where money has gone" problem that occurs with substance abuse. If you're running a successful business and then snorting all your cash flow, that's going to show up in your books (or to your parents if it's your allowance money, etc). To sustain a substance issue, you need not only money but money reasonably free of attention.
- TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
  But generally - if it wasn't for corporate and government corruption they might not need to. You expect 15 year olds to be transgressive. But when it's endemic among certain 50 year olds - that's when you have a real problem.
  - ipnon 3y ago
    Please ask yourself if robbery existed before the invention of corporations and liberal democracy in the 16th and 17th centuries.
    - philipov 3y ago
      Yeah, it did - every time the nobleman's goons came by to seize the grain.
    - Paul-Craft 3y ago
      Yes, robbery existed before it got institutionalized.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    Theft is the first labor-saving innovation.
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      “Great artists steal.”
- p_j_w 3y ago
  You don’t think the two are linked? You can’t imagine seeing such a thing happening and coming to the conclusion that, not only does America not give a shit about you, it absolutely hates you and will do whatever it can to make a buck at your expense and that attitude having an impact on the outlook your kids have?

by mxkopy 3y ago

vorpalhex 3y ago

I don't think 15 year old kids in Chicago are stealing clothes and shoes because of an insider corruption scheme impacting Pennsylvania almost two decades ago.

orochimaaru 3y ago
You forgot to add electronics and video games here. I’m sure those fall under the necessities criteria for teenagers these days. A lot of the crime isn’t just necessities. It’s basically stealing to sell on the side.
- pc86 3y ago
  Absolutely, but the majority of people who are doing that are doing it to buy food and other necessities (or, a step or two removed, to buy drugs to try to sell but for the same end goal - a better life for them and theirs). Yes there are exceptions of course but the people stealing things from Target and CVS are not selling those things to pay for their Mercedes. They're selling them to pay for basic necessities. That doesn't mean it's not a crime, and it shouldn't be punished, but it is a distinction worth noting.
  - vorpalhex 3y ago
    Overwhelmingly shoplifters are white kids with substance abuse problems. They are feeding drug/alcohol problems, not feeding their family. The vast majority of the poor in the US are.. obese. Not fat, but clinically obese. For whatever failings we have, feeding the poor and the masses is not one of them. Typically when kids do "go hungry" they are Middleschoolers or younger with... abusive parents. (Which is why free lunch programs work, it bypasses shitty parents).
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    > Absolutely, but the majority of people who are doing that are doing it to buy food and other necessities (or, a step or two removed, to buy drugs to try to sell but for the same end goal - a better life for them and their I don't think anyone is shoplifting for food, at least in Seattle where food banks are stocked and ask few questions. They do shop lift for drugs, which is why LEGO, baby formula, and laundry detergent sections are locked down at many discount stores. It is shoplifting LEGOs to sell via a fence (this is very organized now) to get money to buy fent (often the shoplifting ring will give you drugs straight for the LEGO set you lifted).
mxkopy 3y ago
If you want me to spell it out for you, 15 year old kids in Chicago are stealing clothes and shoes because the effects of slavery have had as-of-yet unaddressed generational effects on people. Schemes like Kids for Cash serve to remind people that things aren't being addressed. Nihilism ensues.
- vorpalhex 3y ago
  Let's break down a few things here. First, you've made the assumption here that all the shoplifters are black. The data does not support that. Most shoplifters are white kids with drug problems. Second, you've made the assumption here that all Black people in the US are descendents of slaves. That's also incorrect and ignores hundreds of years of migration from a rich variety of countries. Third, no, shoplifters aren't shoplifting because of "generational nihilism". They are feeding drug/alcohol habits.
  - mxkopy 3y ago
    I actually made no statements about the race of the shoplifters. Indeed, I don't think the effects of slavery are isolated to groups of people with a certain skin color. I'm not going to address the first two points you made because they're irrelevant in light of the above. To point three, drug/alcohol habits are often hereditary and communal. Not sure why generational nihilism and feeding drug/alcohol habits are mutually exclusive.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    > Most shoplifters are white kids with drug problems. You keep claiming this without qualification. It is probably very regional, but most shoplifters in my city (Seattle) are mostly white unhoused neighbors who are usually in their 20s-30s and have drug abuse problems. They aren't white suburban kids (although I'm sure it happens in the suburbs, just not in our urban area).
    - vorpalhex 3y ago
      I dropped this cite in a different comment: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4104590/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4104590/ Obviously the shoplifters are going to be a subpopulation of the area they live in - if you live in a predominantly black neighborhood, they will trend to be more black, if you live in an older neighborhood, they will trend to be older, etc etc. But basically the whole benefit of shoplifting is that it solves both your money problem and the "accounting for where money has gone" problem that occurs with substance abuse. If you're running a successful business and then snorting all your cash flow, that's going to show up in your books (or to your parents if it's your allowance money, etc). To sustain a substance issue, you need not only money but money reasonably free of attention.
TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
But generally - if it wasn't for corporate and government corruption they might not need to. You expect 15 year olds to be transgressive. But when it's endemic among certain 50 year olds - that's when you have a real problem.
- ipnon 3y ago
  Please ask yourself if robbery existed before the invention of corporations and liberal democracy in the 16th and 17th centuries.
  - philipov 3y ago
    Yeah, it did - every time the nobleman's goons came by to seize the grain.
  - Paul-Craft 3y ago
    Yes, robbery existed before it got institutionalized.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  Theft is the first labor-saving innovation.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    “Great artists steal.”
p_j_w 3y ago
You don’t think the two are linked? You can’t imagine seeing such a thing happening and coming to the conclusion that, not only does America not give a shit about you, it absolutely hates you and will do whatever it can to make a buck at your expense and that attitude having an impact on the outlook your kids have?