4 ms·

> people have a prima facie right to travel (and live and work!) where they please ... The claim that an action is a prima facie rights violation, then, is not

> people have a prima facie right to travel (and live and work!) where they please ... The claim that an action is a prima facie rights violation, then, is not a very strong claim ... > the EU is going in the opposite direction Well look at crime statistics wherever immigration was made easier. For example in Paris metro 90%+ of thefts and 60%+ of sexual aggressions were committed by foreigners: https://www.valeursactuelles.com/societe/en-ile-de-france-93-des-vols-et-63-des-agressions-sexuelles-dans-les-transports-sont-le-fait-detrangers https://www.valeursactuelles.com/societe/en-ile-de-france-93... Immigration only works for people who can and want to integrate, when people cannot and don't want to integrate the situation quickly becomes infernal for everyone involved

Scoundreller 3y ago
The problem with these numbers in France is that you can be born in France but you’re not automatically a citizen depending on who you were born to. Those would have to undertake a process later in life to acquire French citizenship (not sure if just bureaucratic or monetary costs involved too). Many may not bother acquiring French citizenship if they’re already EU citizens, married to one, or if acquiring another citizenship creates a problem in their other country. Would have been more useful if they dug into birthplace and immigration status. France created a lot of this problem itself by thinking it was their right to just show up in foreign territories and telling everyone to learn French.
- lm28469 3y ago
  > France created a lot of this problem itself by thinking it was their right to just show up in foreign territories and telling everyone to learn French. No country in the world is free from that though... I don't go out and blame the Islamic Empire so leave Europe alone, ex colonies have been free for the greater part of a century and are still as bad as they were 200 years ago, if not worse for a lot of them, perpetuating archaic political systems as rotten as ever, some of them even sinking in even worse. Either way it doesn't make it legal for 6th generation descendants of these countries to rape and steal, especially not after being welcomed as refugees. The vast majority of people integrate well enough we don't have to excuse the ones who don't. People from certain ex colonies have virtually no integration issues and are the cause of no criminality. People who want to integrate suffer from these issues even more than others so we're doing them no service by rationalising these actions https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763585?sommaire=5763633 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763585?sommaire=576363...
  - manquer 3y ago
    > No country in the world is free from that though. Lots of countries are free of it. Mongols did not destroy culture and religion where they went , the Mughals did not, The Americans did not , conquest for wealth does not always mean whole scale destruction of culture. That pretty much is characteristic to the religious nations originating from the Levant. I.e Roman empire successors and the Islamic Caliphates . > I don't go out and blame the Islamic Empire so leave Europe alone Why not ? They are two sides of the same coin . Abhramic religions with chruch controlled /influenced states with the same conversion philosophies in close proximity. > colonies have been free for the greater part of a century. Free? Colonial powers destoried our national cultural wealth , drained natural resources, continue to brain drain best talent from the former colonies, you think a mere half century with scant support and no repatriation is enough to reverse the atrocities the likes lepold commited with blessing of the "western" world ? > make it legal for 6th generation Of course not , there is no justification for any violence .no amount of history justifies any violence Now. However karma is a bitch, you will not find much sympathy in the global south, what Europe has today is nothing compared to what happened in the last 6 centuries, the effects of which will take a millennia to erase , the best English king can do is "almost" appolgize . Europe has a long way to go
    - lm28469 3y ago
      > Europe has a long way to go It'll fall apart because of these issues, I don't think the way will be that long
      - manquer 3y ago
        Falling apart has very different meaning in global south to say Sudanese, Venezuelans or Ethiopians or Burmese . “Falling apart” in Europe is a first world problem that is unlikely to have much empathy in the global south . the basic argument here is we would like to take the best doctors, engineers and scientists and brightest from former colonies but keep all the low life out, why shouldn’t Europe take the good with the bad same of the rest of us?
- brnt 3y ago
  Most countries grant citizenship by blood, not soil. You are right however: framing that crime as being due to foreigners is simplifying France's own culpability in the matter. Anyone blaming foreigners is usually literally shifting blame.
eldaisfish 3y ago
There is an angle here that doesn’t get talked about because it is often misconstrued as “racist”. In every old world society, your ethnicity is a big part of identity. This is how nations come to be exist in most cases. There are few places where this is not true and two successful examples are the USA and Canada. Any time one points out that the cornerstone of US and Canadian society is inclusion, it is shouted down. Meanwhile, the reverse point is ignored in discussions about the old world. France has a problem with integrating muslims because they are not seen as “French”, despite what many well-meaning french people may claim. Identity in countries like France, Sweden etc is build around ethnicity and you cannot change your ethnicity. I say all this because THIS is at the heart of crime statistics. Obviously, it is a complex issue that spans poverty, exclusions etc but at the heart is that old world society is constructed around ethnicity.
- lm28469 3y ago
  > France has a problem with integrating muslims because they are not seen as “French” It works the other way too, here you have the king of Morocco saying Moroccans will _never_ integrate in French society: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0e8r0bVXL8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0e8r0bVXL8 Funny that you talk of "muslims" and "French" after talking about "nations", it already gives a key parameter to understand the situation... There are plenty of muslim immigrants that are fully integrated, they even lament the failure of the French state to control immigrations and solve the migrant crime issues, they're the first ones to denounce islamism. > Identity in countries like France, Sweden etc is build around ethnicity and you cannot change your ethnicity. You don't know much about France then... we had many immigration waves, from Poland to Portugal, Italy, Maghreb, Vietnam, &c. only a small minority of one of these, a very specific one, creates issues. And it's the same all over Europe... despite each EU country being widely different...

Scoundreller 3y ago

The problem with these numbers in France is that you can be born in France but you’re not automatically a citizen depending on who you were born to. Those would have to undertake a process later in life to acquire French citizenship (not sure if just bureaucratic or monetary costs involved too). Many may not bother acquiring French citizenship if they’re already EU citizens, married to one, or if acquiring another citizenship creates a problem in their other country. Would have been more useful if they dug into birthplace and immigration status. France created a lot of this problem itself by thinking it was their right to just show up in foreign territories and telling everyone to learn French.

lm28469 3y ago
> France created a lot of this problem itself by thinking it was their right to just show up in foreign territories and telling everyone to learn French. No country in the world is free from that though... I don't go out and blame the Islamic Empire so leave Europe alone, ex colonies have been free for the greater part of a century and are still as bad as they were 200 years ago, if not worse for a lot of them, perpetuating archaic political systems as rotten as ever, some of them even sinking in even worse. Either way it doesn't make it legal for 6th generation descendants of these countries to rape and steal, especially not after being welcomed as refugees. The vast majority of people integrate well enough we don't have to excuse the ones who don't. People from certain ex colonies have virtually no integration issues and are the cause of no criminality. People who want to integrate suffer from these issues even more than others so we're doing them no service by rationalising these actions https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763585?sommaire=5763633 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763585?sommaire=576363...
- manquer 3y ago
  > No country in the world is free from that though. Lots of countries are free of it. Mongols did not destroy culture and religion where they went , the Mughals did not, The Americans did not , conquest for wealth does not always mean whole scale destruction of culture. That pretty much is characteristic to the religious nations originating from the Levant. I.e Roman empire successors and the Islamic Caliphates . > I don't go out and blame the Islamic Empire so leave Europe alone Why not ? They are two sides of the same coin . Abhramic religions with chruch controlled /influenced states with the same conversion philosophies in close proximity. > colonies have been free for the greater part of a century. Free? Colonial powers destoried our national cultural wealth , drained natural resources, continue to brain drain best talent from the former colonies, you think a mere half century with scant support and no repatriation is enough to reverse the atrocities the likes lepold commited with blessing of the "western" world ? > make it legal for 6th generation Of course not , there is no justification for any violence .no amount of history justifies any violence Now. However karma is a bitch, you will not find much sympathy in the global south, what Europe has today is nothing compared to what happened in the last 6 centuries, the effects of which will take a millennia to erase , the best English king can do is "almost" appolgize . Europe has a long way to go
  - lm28469 3y ago
    > Europe has a long way to go It'll fall apart because of these issues, I don't think the way will be that long
    - manquer 3y ago
      Falling apart has very different meaning in global south to say Sudanese, Venezuelans or Ethiopians or Burmese . “Falling apart” in Europe is a first world problem that is unlikely to have much empathy in the global south . the basic argument here is we would like to take the best doctors, engineers and scientists and brightest from former colonies but keep all the low life out, why shouldn’t Europe take the good with the bad same of the rest of us?
brnt 3y ago
Most countries grant citizenship by blood, not soil. You are right however: framing that crime as being due to foreigners is simplifying France's own culpability in the matter. Anyone blaming foreigners is usually literally shifting blame.

eldaisfish 3y ago

There is an angle here that doesn’t get talked about because it is often misconstrued as “racist”. In every old world society, your ethnicity is a big part of identity. This is how nations come to be exist in most cases. There are few places where this is not true and two successful examples are the USA and Canada. Any time one points out that the cornerstone of US and Canadian society is inclusion, it is shouted down. Meanwhile, the reverse point is ignored in discussions about the old world. France has a problem with integrating muslims because they are not seen as “French”, despite what many well-meaning french people may claim. Identity in countries like France, Sweden etc is build around ethnicity and you cannot change your ethnicity. I say all this because THIS is at the heart of crime statistics. Obviously, it is a complex issue that spans poverty, exclusions etc but at the heart is that old world society is constructed around ethnicity.

lm28469 3y ago
> France has a problem with integrating muslims because they are not seen as “French” It works the other way too, here you have the king of Morocco saying Moroccans will _never_ integrate in French society: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0e8r0bVXL8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0e8r0bVXL8 Funny that you talk of "muslims" and "French" after talking about "nations", it already gives a key parameter to understand the situation... There are plenty of muslim immigrants that are fully integrated, they even lament the failure of the French state to control immigrations and solve the migrant crime issues, they're the first ones to denounce islamism. > Identity in countries like France, Sweden etc is build around ethnicity and you cannot change your ethnicity. You don't know much about France then... we had many immigration waves, from Poland to Portugal, Italy, Maghreb, Vietnam, &c. only a small minority of one of these, a very specific one, creates issues. And it's the same all over Europe... despite each EU country being widely different...