6 ms·

To help them, we need to be less tolerant of the white collar crime perpetrated by the employers in our country.

orochimaaru 3y ago
How would targeting white collar crime prevent the closure of stores because of safety concerns and store losses? White collar crime needs to be prosecuted. But that won’t help here.
- xattt 3y ago
  Targeting white collar crime opens up resources for helping the rest of society.
  - orochimaaru 3y ago
    Nope. It doesn’t. Probably goes to a fund managed by the agency that initiated the prosecution. I don’t think any marginalized community sees a single dime out of any white collar crime prosecution.
- mxkopy 3y ago
  I don't know if you classify misappropriation of government funds, grift, and politically motivated administrative decisions as white collar crime, but that sort of stuff is a large part of the reason for why this sort of thing is culturally acceptable. The Kids for Cash scandal, I think, serves as a good example for why so many people feel disenfranchised - and it's an example of someone with authority in the system getting caught, imagine how many don't.
  - vorpalhex 3y ago
    I don't think 15 year old kids in Chicago are stealing clothes and shoes because of an insider corruption scheme impacting Pennsylvania almost two decades ago.
    - orochimaaru 3y ago
      You forgot to add electronics and video games here. I’m sure those fall under the necessities criteria for teenagers these days. A lot of the crime isn’t just necessities. It’s basically stealing to sell on the side.
      - pc86 3y ago
        Absolutely, but the majority of people who are doing that are doing it to buy food and other necessities (or, a step or two removed, to buy drugs to try to sell but for the same end goal - a better life for them and theirs). Yes there are exceptions of course but the people stealing things from Target and CVS are not selling those things to pay for their Mercedes. They're selling them to pay for basic necessities. That doesn't mean it's not a crime, and it shouldn't be punished, but it is a distinction worth noting.
        vorpalhex 3y ago
        Overwhelmingly shoplifters are white kids with substance abuse problems. They are feeding drug/alcohol problems, not feeding their family. The vast majority of the poor in the US are.. obese. Not fat, but clinically obese. For whatever failings we have, feeding the poor and the masses is not one of them. Typically when kids do "go hungry" they are Middleschoolers or younger with... abusive parents. (Which is why free lunch programs work, it bypasses shitty parents).
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        > Absolutely, but the majority of people who are doing that are doing it to buy food and other necessities (or, a step or two removed, to buy drugs to try to sell but for the same end goal - a better life for them and their I don't think anyone is shoplifting for food, at least in Seattle where food banks are stocked and ask few questions. They do shop lift for drugs, which is why LEGO, baby formula, and laundry detergent sections are locked down at many discount stores. It is shoplifting LEGOs to sell via a fence (this is very organized now) to get money to buy fent (often the shoplifting ring will give you drugs straight for the LEGO set you lifted).
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  White collar crime is part of the engine that creates the poverty that has people shoplifting in the first place. Between the subprime mortgage crisis and hooking 50 million people on OxyContin, this shit really takes a bite out of people's savings.
- floren 3y ago
  It comes up in every crime discussion -- a poster runs in to point out that actually, wage theft is worse than someone beating and robbing your elderly grandmother.
  - justrealist 3y ago
    They also have to torture the numbers to make the case that it's comparable. The "wage theft" numbers they cite include like, some defense subcontractor suing Lockheed Martin for unpaid hours. It's important that it doesn't happen, but it's just a different order of magnitude of damage for the people sensitive to it.
  - somehnguy 3y ago
    I’ve never seen anyone compare wage theft to violent crime like you’re implying. It’s usually in the context that wage theft is a much larger problem than people realize - to the point that depending on which source you choose it’s either on par or larger than other forms of theft.
    - floren 3y ago
      Searching the archives for "wage theft" turns up examples pretty trivially, e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37703395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37703395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37751850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37751850 You're right that they're not saying "wage theft is worse than murder", just "wage theft is worse than all other forms of theft"
      - somehnguy 3y ago
        I don’t see any references to physically harming people in your examples. I also don’t believe anyone is implying violent crime when comparing to other types of theft.
    - Paul-Craft 3y ago
      I don't get where you're getting "on par" from. Literally the only year that other forms of theft have exceeded or even come close to wage theft was the year Bernie Madoff got convicted. That's just an accounting artifact.
owlstuffing 3y ago
The two are not mutually exclusive.
arijun 3y ago
To me this sounds like a “no u” argument. Whataboutism doesn’t address the op’s claim that shoplifting reduces access to stores for those who really need it.

How would targeting white collar crime prevent the closure of stores because of safety concerns and store losses? White collar crime needs to be prosecuted. But that won’t help here.

xattt 3y ago
Targeting white collar crime opens up resources for helping the rest of society.
- orochimaaru 3y ago
  Nope. It doesn’t. Probably goes to a fund managed by the agency that initiated the prosecution. I don’t think any marginalized community sees a single dime out of any white collar crime prosecution.
mxkopy 3y ago
I don't know if you classify misappropriation of government funds, grift, and politically motivated administrative decisions as white collar crime, but that sort of stuff is a large part of the reason for why this sort of thing is culturally acceptable. The Kids for Cash scandal, I think, serves as a good example for why so many people feel disenfranchised - and it's an example of someone with authority in the system getting caught, imagine how many don't.
- vorpalhex 3y ago
  I don't think 15 year old kids in Chicago are stealing clothes and shoes because of an insider corruption scheme impacting Pennsylvania almost two decades ago.
  - orochimaaru 3y ago
    You forgot to add electronics and video games here. I’m sure those fall under the necessities criteria for teenagers these days. A lot of the crime isn’t just necessities. It’s basically stealing to sell on the side.
    - pc86 3y ago
      Absolutely, but the majority of people who are doing that are doing it to buy food and other necessities (or, a step or two removed, to buy drugs to try to sell but for the same end goal - a better life for them and theirs). Yes there are exceptions of course but the people stealing things from Target and CVS are not selling those things to pay for their Mercedes. They're selling them to pay for basic necessities. That doesn't mean it's not a crime, and it shouldn't be punished, but it is a distinction worth noting.
      - vorpalhex 3y ago
        Overwhelmingly shoplifters are white kids with substance abuse problems. They are feeding drug/alcohol problems, not feeding their family. The vast majority of the poor in the US are.. obese. Not fat, but clinically obese. For whatever failings we have, feeding the poor and the masses is not one of them. Typically when kids do "go hungry" they are Middleschoolers or younger with... abusive parents. (Which is why free lunch programs work, it bypasses shitty parents).
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        > Absolutely, but the majority of people who are doing that are doing it to buy food and other necessities (or, a step or two removed, to buy drugs to try to sell but for the same end goal - a better life for them and their I don't think anyone is shoplifting for food, at least in Seattle where food banks are stocked and ask few questions. They do shop lift for drugs, which is why LEGO, baby formula, and laundry detergent sections are locked down at many discount stores. It is shoplifting LEGOs to sell via a fence (this is very organized now) to get money to buy fent (often the shoplifting ring will give you drugs straight for the LEGO set you lifted).
marginalia_nu 3y ago
White collar crime is part of the engine that creates the poverty that has people shoplifting in the first place. Between the subprime mortgage crisis and hooking 50 million people on OxyContin, this shit really takes a bite out of people's savings.
floren 3y ago
It comes up in every crime discussion -- a poster runs in to point out that actually, wage theft is worse than someone beating and robbing your elderly grandmother.
- justrealist 3y ago
  They also have to torture the numbers to make the case that it's comparable. The "wage theft" numbers they cite include like, some defense subcontractor suing Lockheed Martin for unpaid hours. It's important that it doesn't happen, but it's just a different order of magnitude of damage for the people sensitive to it.
- somehnguy 3y ago
  I’ve never seen anyone compare wage theft to violent crime like you’re implying. It’s usually in the context that wage theft is a much larger problem than people realize - to the point that depending on which source you choose it’s either on par or larger than other forms of theft.
  - floren 3y ago
    Searching the archives for "wage theft" turns up examples pretty trivially, e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37703395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37703395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37751850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37751850 You're right that they're not saying "wage theft is worse than murder", just "wage theft is worse than all other forms of theft"
    - somehnguy 3y ago
      I don’t see any references to physically harming people in your examples. I also don’t believe anyone is implying violent crime when comparing to other types of theft.
  - Paul-Craft 3y ago
    I don't get where you're getting "on par" from. Literally the only year that other forms of theft have exceeded or even come close to wage theft was the year Bernie Madoff got convicted. That's just an accounting artifact.

owlstuffing 3y ago

The two are not mutually exclusive.

arijun 3y ago

To me this sounds like a “no u” argument. Whataboutism doesn’t address the op’s claim that shoplifting reduces access to stores for those who really need it.