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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the AUSA's performance here was not particularly impressive. Yes, they constructed an airtight case, but to do t

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the AUSA's performance here was not particularly impressive. Yes, they constructed an airtight case, but to do that, they handed out immunity deals like candy to all of SBF's co-conspirators. Sure, they got their guy, but it almost looks like they wanted to craft a narrative that puts all of the blame on him. Because of that, several other huge fraudsters here (eg Caroline Ellison) get to walk. The US attorneys seem to have set up SBF to be the fall guy, while being far too soft on everyone who conspired with him.

josephd79 3y ago
I agree, didn't they admit they knew what they were doing? They should all do the same amount of time.
- 8ytecoder 3y ago
  You’re basically getting rid of prisoner’s dilemma. No one will ever snitch.
- tim333 3y ago
  Speaking as a victim, this seems to have been basically Sam's doing. Fair enough his underlings didn't shop him but that's a lesser offence.
- ncallaway 3y ago
  That would absolutely remove the incentive for anyone to cooperate with the government ever again. Such a system would make it nearly impossible to proesecute the higher levels of a criminal enterprise. It’s easy to prosecute the foot-soldiers of a criminal enterprise with outside evidence. The leadership of it typically requires testimony from others within the enterprise. So, your approach of eliminating all benefits to criminal defendants for cooperating with the government would *massively* enable organized crime, and would end with a criminal justice system that comes down hard on the low-level members, while giving the organizers and planners a walk.
- kawhah 3y ago
  SBF could simply have chosen to plead guilty, then this would have been roughly what happened.
beedrillzzzzz 3y ago
Thats not true, Caroline and the main conspirators pled guilty and took plea deals, this is not immunity, they will still be sentenced to prison.
- cornholio 3y ago
  They handed Elison a plea deal waving all charges except criminal tax violations, which she's unlikely to be found guilty of. However, she was the principal co-conspirator, presiding over a bucket shop that drained 7 billion directly out of the accounts of FTX. As a Stanford finance graduate with trading experience, it's ridiculous to claim she was not aware of the "backdoor" source of Alameda's liquidity and the massive loses they accrued gambling with the money of FTX customers.
  - tropicalbeach 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Craighead 3y ago
      [dead]
  - semiquaver 3y ago
    > They handed Elison a plea deal waving all charges except criminal tax violations This is false. She pled guilty to wire fraud, conspiracy to commit wire fraud, conspiracy to commit commodities fraud, conspiracy to commit securities fraud and conspiracy to commit money laundering. The crimes she pled to carry a maximum sentence of 110 years. She was never charged with tax violations. She will receive credit for her testimony but she will certainly do prison time. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23495753-caroline-ellison-plea-agreement https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23495753-caroline-el... https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/united-states-attorney-announces-extradition-ftx-founder-samuel-bankman-fried-united https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/united-states-attorney-...
    - 3y ago
_n_b_ 3y ago
> several other huge fraudsters here (eg Caroline Ellison) get to walk Caroline Ellison pleaded to two counts of wire fraud, two counts of conspiracy to commit wire fraud, conspiracy to commit commodities fraud, conspiracy to commit securities fraud and conspiracy to commit money laundering. Looking at the Federal Sentencing Guidelines[1], even accepting for her being a cooperating witness, she's very likely going to prison too for a fair amount of time. Just for (probably much) less time than SBF. [1] Run your own calculations: https://www.sentencing.us https://www.sentencing.us
- 8ytecoder 3y ago
  Right! Justice dept doesn’t handout plea deals where you don’t plead guilty to the most serious of the crime - even when you’re a cooperator. The sentencing might be lighter for cooperation.
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  I would rather trust the opinions of experienced criminal lawyers than someone who gets their information by running a "sentencing points" calculator: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-03/sbf-s-inner-circle-delivered-a-conviction-what-s-next-for-them?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTY5OTAxODg5MywiZXhwIjoxNjk5NjIzNjkzLCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJTMlNLR1lUMVVNMFcwMSIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiI2REU0NzkyMUZBRTE0QTdBODg0NDMxQjMxRDQ0QzQwQiJ9.g4MJJuvvCF_PN7cQ_pwHGmSVdLOu9p2QC-Xms_DYy-I https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-03/sbf-s-inn... "Ellison, Wang and Singh will likely get no or very little prison time for their testimony, several criminal defense lawyers who’ve followed the case said."
  - galleywest200 3y ago
    Defense lawyers who did not sign their name to this prediction?
    - verteu 3y ago
      Here's a quote from a former federal prosecutor on the record: https://techcrunch.com/2023/10/24/ex-sdny-prosecutor-says-caroline-ellison-gary-wang-and-nishad-singh-probably-wont-get-jail-time/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/10/24/ex-sdny-prosecutor-says-ca...
tiahura 3y ago
[flagged]
- zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
  [flagged]
- LargeTomato 3y ago
  Hmm I disagree. Commit fraud => go to jail. Commit fraud as much as Caroline? Direct to jail. I don't think that makes someone an incel and it's unnecessary to attack people for hating women because they clearly have not expressed anything of the sort.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  I realize that incel is a fun slam but I think its only accurate when self-prescribed. Otherwise the “involuntary” aspect isnt fulfilled. The “voluntariness” of celibacy cant be determined by someone else.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  who is the incel here, exactly? are you just using that term as a way of saying "shady" or "irresponsible"? like, everyone at FTX was banging each other constantly. And I can't see how the celibacies or lack thereof of the judges and lawyers is a discussion topic. at this point it's hard to tell if this is shillbot trying to derail a convo, or just abusing words that have become too common to the point of losing meaning.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Incel is nowadays an ideology, not the act of being involuntarily celibate. If you think that sucks, go take it up with the incel forums where they discuss how it's totally women's fault that they can't get laid. Inceldom is not about the struggle or loneliness, but about directing that into hate for women as a category.
i_like_pie1 3y ago
had similar POV but changing my mind after talking with someone this AM their POV is that this is net good for society. outcome we want = no crime how to deter? 1/ big punishment for main actor 2/ get complicit actors to cooperate and so by giving plea deals the gov shows that cooperation can save you
- kaibee 3y ago
  Yeah... but otoh, being a lower level peon shouldn't be a get out of jail free card. The incentive is then 'well as long as i flip on the big guy if he gets caught, i can make some nice piles of money in the mean time and maybe i can exit before it blows up anyway'
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    she wasn't a lower level peon, she had actual rank, and enough education and experience to know what's going on. and she got a sweet deal, but she's not getting away scott-free, and will likely see real prison time and huge fines. yeah she may have another $2 million hidden away as Monero somewhere, but her career is busted -- no one is ever going to trust her after this -- and if the Feds get wind of cash they didn't know about that could end in more charges. it certainly isn't a get out of jail free card, just a "dont spend 60 years in prison" card.
    - grvdrm 3y ago
      >but her career is busted -- no one is ever going to trust her after this Don't forget -> book deal. She's still capable of making money off the outcome and transitioning into a career as more of an evangelist for what NOT to do.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Yeah... but otoh, being a lower level peon shouldn't be a get out of jail free card. The other involved principals pled guilty to multiple federal felonies, and are likely to spend at least some time in prison even if their sentencing gives them large reductions in what their sentence for those crimes otherwise would be for their cooperation.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
itsoktocry 3y ago
>The US attorneys seem to have set up SBF to be the fall guy The fall guy? Come on. Some low-level bank executive commits fraud and this place calls for the CEO's head. SBF was in charge an knew everything that was happening. IT sounds like he orchestrated most of it. There was zero element of rogue employees, or anything of the sort.
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  The fall guy is usually someone high up in an organization where the entire organization does something bad. In 2008, chief risk officers, CEOs, and COOs were the fall guys over the failures of their respective banks.
  - kawhah 3y ago
    > chief risk officers, CEOs, and COOs were the fall guys over the failures of their respective banks only two things wrong with this claim: 1. no CROs, CEOs or COOs were judicially punished in any way for the failure of their banks. 2. CROs and CEOs were clearly responsible for those failures. That's literally their whole job for which they were typically paid 7 to 9 figures annually.
  - seanhunter 3y ago
    The fall guy is someone who "takes the fall" (ie the responsibility) for the misdeeds of someone else. You're not the fall guy if you're convicted of something when you're the person who did the thing. This is a very weird argument you're making. They successfully prosecuted the main perpetrator of a massive and very complex fraud in spite of him being (pre collapse) the absolute golden child of the industry. That's a huge win. Getting time for anyone else is far less important than getting guilty on all charges for the main perpetrator.
    - calf 3y ago
      > They successfully prosecuted the main perpetrator of a massive and very complex fraud in spite of him being (pre collapse) the absolute golden child of the industry. Not OP, but as a layperson like myself, what is the compelling proof that "complex fraud" actually happened? Last night I clicked 3 different articles--including Wikipedia's page on the trial--and it was a really long read. I should be able to read somewhere in a single paragraph, what was the main crime, and what was the best/crucial evidence for it. The Wiki page for instance began by listing a litany of alleged crimes--which for lay understanding is the wrong level of detail. I would like a clear, simple, compelling summary but it actually not that easy to find this information written concisely in a neutral article.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
hintymad 3y ago
Carolin pleads guilty on multiple counts of charges, and per her words on the witness stand, her corporation with the AUSA would get her a letter to the judge from the AUSA that acknowledges her corporation.
smarmgoblin 3y ago
They didn’t get immunity, they just haven’t been sentenced yet.

josephd79 3y ago

I agree, didn't they admit they knew what they were doing? They should all do the same amount of time.

8ytecoder 3y ago
You’re basically getting rid of prisoner’s dilemma. No one will ever snitch.
tim333 3y ago
Speaking as a victim, this seems to have been basically Sam's doing. Fair enough his underlings didn't shop him but that's a lesser offence.
ncallaway 3y ago
That would absolutely remove the incentive for anyone to cooperate with the government ever again. Such a system would make it nearly impossible to proesecute the higher levels of a criminal enterprise. It’s easy to prosecute the foot-soldiers of a criminal enterprise with outside evidence. The leadership of it typically requires testimony from others within the enterprise. So, your approach of eliminating all benefits to criminal defendants for cooperating with the government would *massively* enable organized crime, and would end with a criminal justice system that comes down hard on the low-level members, while giving the organizers and planners a walk.
kawhah 3y ago
SBF could simply have chosen to plead guilty, then this would have been roughly what happened.

beedrillzzzzz 3y ago

Thats not true, Caroline and the main conspirators pled guilty and took plea deals, this is not immunity, they will still be sentenced to prison.

cornholio 3y ago
They handed Elison a plea deal waving all charges except criminal tax violations, which she's unlikely to be found guilty of. However, she was the principal co-conspirator, presiding over a bucket shop that drained 7 billion directly out of the accounts of FTX. As a Stanford finance graduate with trading experience, it's ridiculous to claim she was not aware of the "backdoor" source of Alameda's liquidity and the massive loses they accrued gambling with the money of FTX customers.
- tropicalbeach 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Craighead 3y ago
    [dead]
- semiquaver 3y ago
  > They handed Elison a plea deal waving all charges except criminal tax violations This is false. She pled guilty to wire fraud, conspiracy to commit wire fraud, conspiracy to commit commodities fraud, conspiracy to commit securities fraud and conspiracy to commit money laundering. The crimes she pled to carry a maximum sentence of 110 years. She was never charged with tax violations. She will receive credit for her testimony but she will certainly do prison time. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23495753-caroline-ellison-plea-agreement https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23495753-caroline-el... https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/united-states-attorney-announces-extradition-ftx-founder-samuel-bankman-fried-united https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/united-states-attorney-...
  - 3y ago

_n_b_ 3y ago

> several other huge fraudsters here (eg Caroline Ellison) get to walk Caroline Ellison pleaded to two counts of wire fraud, two counts of conspiracy to commit wire fraud, conspiracy to commit commodities fraud, conspiracy to commit securities fraud and conspiracy to commit money laundering. Looking at the Federal Sentencing Guidelines[1], even accepting for her being a cooperating witness, she's very likely going to prison too for a fair amount of time. Just for (probably much) less time than SBF. [1] Run your own calculations: https://www.sentencing.us https://www.sentencing.us

8ytecoder 3y ago
Right! Justice dept doesn’t handout plea deals where you don’t plead guilty to the most serious of the crime - even when you’re a cooperator. The sentencing might be lighter for cooperation.
pclmulqdq 3y ago
I would rather trust the opinions of experienced criminal lawyers than someone who gets their information by running a "sentencing points" calculator: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-03/sbf-s-inner-circle-delivered-a-conviction-what-s-next-for-them?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTY5OTAxODg5MywiZXhwIjoxNjk5NjIzNjkzLCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJTMlNLR1lUMVVNMFcwMSIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiI2REU0NzkyMUZBRTE0QTdBODg0NDMxQjMxRDQ0QzQwQiJ9.g4MJJuvvCF_PN7cQ_pwHGmSVdLOu9p2QC-Xms_DYy-I https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-03/sbf-s-inn... "Ellison, Wang and Singh will likely get no or very little prison time for their testimony, several criminal defense lawyers who’ve followed the case said."
- galleywest200 3y ago
  Defense lawyers who did not sign their name to this prediction?
  - verteu 3y ago
    Here's a quote from a former federal prosecutor on the record: https://techcrunch.com/2023/10/24/ex-sdny-prosecutor-says-caroline-ellison-gary-wang-and-nishad-singh-probably-wont-get-jail-time/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/10/24/ex-sdny-prosecutor-says-ca...

tiahura 3y ago

[flagged]

zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
[flagged]
LargeTomato 3y ago
Hmm I disagree. Commit fraud => go to jail. Commit fraud as much as Caroline? Direct to jail. I don't think that makes someone an incel and it's unnecessary to attack people for hating women because they clearly have not expressed anything of the sort.
nonethewiser 3y ago
I realize that incel is a fun slam but I think its only accurate when self-prescribed. Otherwise the “involuntary” aspect isnt fulfilled. The “voluntariness” of celibacy cant be determined by someone else.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
who is the incel here, exactly? are you just using that term as a way of saying "shady" or "irresponsible"? like, everyone at FTX was banging each other constantly. And I can't see how the celibacies or lack thereof of the judges and lawyers is a discussion topic. at this point it's hard to tell if this is shillbot trying to derail a convo, or just abusing words that have become too common to the point of losing meaning.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Incel is nowadays an ideology, not the act of being involuntarily celibate. If you think that sucks, go take it up with the incel forums where they discuss how it's totally women's fault that they can't get laid. Inceldom is not about the struggle or loneliness, but about directing that into hate for women as a category.

i_like_pie1 3y ago

had similar POV but changing my mind after talking with someone this AM their POV is that this is net good for society. outcome we want = no crime how to deter? 1/ big punishment for main actor 2/ get complicit actors to cooperate and so by giving plea deals the gov shows that cooperation can save you

kaibee 3y ago
Yeah... but otoh, being a lower level peon shouldn't be a get out of jail free card. The incentive is then 'well as long as i flip on the big guy if he gets caught, i can make some nice piles of money in the mean time and maybe i can exit before it blows up anyway'
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  she wasn't a lower level peon, she had actual rank, and enough education and experience to know what's going on. and she got a sweet deal, but she's not getting away scott-free, and will likely see real prison time and huge fines. yeah she may have another $2 million hidden away as Monero somewhere, but her career is busted -- no one is ever going to trust her after this -- and if the Feds get wind of cash they didn't know about that could end in more charges. it certainly isn't a get out of jail free card, just a "dont spend 60 years in prison" card.
  - grvdrm 3y ago
    >but her career is busted -- no one is ever going to trust her after this Don't forget -> book deal. She's still capable of making money off the outcome and transitioning into a career as more of an evangelist for what NOT to do.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > Yeah... but otoh, being a lower level peon shouldn't be a get out of jail free card. The other involved principals pled guilty to multiple federal felonies, and are likely to spend at least some time in prison even if their sentencing gives them large reductions in what their sentence for those crimes otherwise would be for their cooperation.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

itsoktocry 3y ago

>The US attorneys seem to have set up SBF to be the fall guy The fall guy? Come on. Some low-level bank executive commits fraud and this place calls for the CEO's head. SBF was in charge an knew everything that was happening. IT sounds like he orchestrated most of it. There was zero element of rogue employees, or anything of the sort.

pclmulqdq 3y ago
The fall guy is usually someone high up in an organization where the entire organization does something bad. In 2008, chief risk officers, CEOs, and COOs were the fall guys over the failures of their respective banks.
- kawhah 3y ago
  > chief risk officers, CEOs, and COOs were the fall guys over the failures of their respective banks only two things wrong with this claim: 1. no CROs, CEOs or COOs were judicially punished in any way for the failure of their banks. 2. CROs and CEOs were clearly responsible for those failures. That's literally their whole job for which they were typically paid 7 to 9 figures annually.
- seanhunter 3y ago
  The fall guy is someone who "takes the fall" (ie the responsibility) for the misdeeds of someone else. You're not the fall guy if you're convicted of something when you're the person who did the thing. This is a very weird argument you're making. They successfully prosecuted the main perpetrator of a massive and very complex fraud in spite of him being (pre collapse) the absolute golden child of the industry. That's a huge win. Getting time for anyone else is far less important than getting guilty on all charges for the main perpetrator.
  - calf 3y ago
    > They successfully prosecuted the main perpetrator of a massive and very complex fraud in spite of him being (pre collapse) the absolute golden child of the industry. Not OP, but as a layperson like myself, what is the compelling proof that "complex fraud" actually happened? Last night I clicked 3 different articles--including Wikipedia's page on the trial--and it was a really long read. I should be able to read somewhere in a single paragraph, what was the main crime, and what was the best/crucial evidence for it. The Wiki page for instance began by listing a litany of alleged crimes--which for lay understanding is the wrong level of detail. I would like a clear, simple, compelling summary but it actually not that easy to find this information written concisely in a neutral article.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

hintymad 3y ago

Carolin pleads guilty on multiple counts of charges, and per her words on the witness stand, her corporation with the AUSA would get her a letter to the judge from the AUSA that acknowledges her corporation.

smarmgoblin 3y ago

They didn’t get immunity, they just haven’t been sentenced yet.