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I would love to own an EV, but even as a well-to-do middle income, they're just.so.expensive right now! And they have to be a second car for many north America

I would love to own an EV, but even as a well-to-do middle income, they're just.so.expensive right now! And they have to be a second car for many north American folks (due to distances and ranges involved),which unfortunately makes it even more of a luxury :-( I'd be curious to hear more about handling part though. Outside of Tesla (which I've never driven ; it's a personal thing but as soon as I see the "controls", I jump out) , the EVs I've tried (volt,ioniq, leaf) had great acceleration, but not great handling (turning etc). Tires, suspension and in particular extra weight all seemed to work against me in the corner. They were all very comfortable, and powerful, but I would not have called any of them well handling.

throwaway2037 3y ago
Tesla Model 3 in California costs about 25,000 USD after gov't rebates. Is this really too "just.so.expensive"?
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  Tesla model 3 is 54k CAD officially. I've heard rumours of people being able to buy it that price but never met an actual person or even heard of a cousins best friend who did. Cheapest anybody has been able to get it that I'm aware of is 60ish K CAD, plus usual stuff (taxes delivery etc). That's... A lot of money for a car. We just bought a nice 5 door hatchback for 19kcad (25k cad all in) . It's not a comparable car on any granular metric, but it's a car! It takes me places! At literally one Third the price. If I want to go for fun, I can get a wrx for 35k or gti for 40. If I want a practical car I can get a minivan for 40k or any number of (ugh) SUVs. Tesla 3 on the other hand is a luxury, not a practical choice. It'll never ever ever pay off on cost/economy basis. And that's ok! Luxury cars exist and are great,for those who want and can afford them. It may be fun and enjoyable and status symbol, but it's the Apple of cars. Some people are into it while many of us balk at the value proposition (or perceived lack thereof). So yes - it's just. So. Expensive! For me at least, when I look at other options and alternatives :). edit/addition: Same is the case for most other EVs. Nissan Leaf starts at 42k CAD, Mazda 3 starts at 24k CAD. Ioniq 5 starts at 51K CAD, VW Taos starts at 30k. Basically, EVs are $12k - $25k more than ICE cars, where I'm at. And $12K is a lot of money! That's how much whole cars used to cost as recently as 3 years ago (and you can still get a brand new car for $15k though you probably shouldn't:). Again, it's a bit of HN bubble, or possibly California special circumstances, where Tesla can even begin to be discussed as an affordable :-/
  - zzleeper 3y ago
    Random q but what car did you get? I'm looking at replacements for my 11-yr old Hyundai 5-door hatchback :)
    - NikolaNovak 3y ago
      We got the Kia Rio LX+. https://www.kia.ca/en/vehicles/2023/rio/specs?trimCode=RO853P https://www.kia.ca/en/vehicles/2023/rio/specs?trimCode=RO853... Background, FWIW :) * We have a Honda Odyssey as the primary family vehicle for ourselves and our kids. It's a very nice, very practical, very large car. As a family car travelling with kids, we love it! You do feel a little ridiculous if you're driving somewhere as a lone driver though. Did I mention it's big?? :-) * I work from home and my wife had a hybrid job so we got away with Minivan as the primary car, occasionally supported by my 20yo Subaru WRX * However, our occasional second car is increasingly a rustbucket, as as my wife needs to go to work physically more, the 20yo WRX (manual gear etc) is less and less a viable option for us * We bought a used car this summer, safetied, from people we are kinda-sorta connected through our network, and ended up being completely fleeced. After several mechanics review ended up writing off the entire car. Between that and other people's experiences and long searches, we are completely soured on used car market right now, at least here in Ontario, in terms of prices and reliability. It's insane. * We need a cheap basic car for work commute and situations when we need to do two things at once. We are still paying monthly financing on the Oddyssey so our budget is limited. We don't necessarily need it to last forever but we need it to be basic and largely reliable and comfortable for next 5-8 years. * We looked at Mitsubishi Mirage, which is currently the cheapest new car in Canada, but it had too many tradeoffs * Kia Rio LX+ is the second cheapest car in Canada but is a significant step up. It drives fine, looks fine, comfortable, visibility is good (shockingly a rarity these days), roomy enough (I'm 189cm / 6'2"), has A/C and Carplay/Android Auto etc. Honestly not missing ANYthing I need for a basic, practical car. * Massive bonus: great, great control scheme. I love the control scheme of Hyundai & Kia last few years. Reasonable buttons in reasonable places, reasonably well found without looking for them. SO MANY modern cars sacrifice usability for some perceived fashion/looks, and it's a massive turn off. Kia's controls are like a Nikon DSLR - sure they're somewhat "old fashioned", but they're based on all the usability lessons learned we have at our disposal. It works and works well. Thus endeth the sermon :-> * FWIW, In Canada at least, the availability of cars I personally like is dwindling. Manufacturers are doubling down on the large SUVs (ugh!), and subcompact hatchbacks (Mazda 2, Ford Fiesta etc) are completely disappearing. I understand it's even the last year for the Kia Rio, and I can't seem to find regular Golf/Rabbit (only GTI/R) either. Depending on if your Hyundai 5-door is the Accent or Elantra GT, you might find the current Rio a very natural replacement :) The other car we looked at is the Subaru Impreza or RS; that's the car we would've liked to get, especially given my old WRX, but given our usage patterns, paying $10k more was not a good value for us at this time. Hope that helps!
- LeafItAlone 3y ago
  I’m seeing $28,490 for a CA zip code. For the cheapest Model 3. After that’s rebates and “est. gas savings of $3,000 over 3 years”. So that’s $31,490. About 25% more than 25k. Misleading on price does a disservice to potential buyers.
- function_seven 3y ago
  I just priced out a base Model 3. No options whatsoever. The price—including Federal, State, and utility subsidies—is $34,185. I included sales tax. Without that it's still $30,630, but I don't think it's fair to include government subsidies but exclude government taxes when determining the effective cost of the car. Here's the breakdown: Vehicle Price $38,990 Destination Fee 1,390 Order Fee 250 Sales Tax 3,555 Federal Tax Credit (7,500) Calif Tax Credit (2,000) Utility Rebate (500) ————————— $34,185
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    Canadian prices are similar, but looks like the rebate is significantly different: https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/inventory/new/m3?arrangeby=relevance&zip=L7G3x8&range=200 https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/inventory/new/m3?arrangeby=relev... Prices range $53k - $65k CAD (prior to any fees / taxes etc), which would make the cheapest one 38k, in line with price you indicated. Our incentive though is "up to $5k CAD" which is up to ~3,600USD rebate. (basically, nowhere near 25k USD however it is sliced :( )
    - red-iron-pine 3y ago
      oil & gas run the country
Royce-CMR 3y ago
I’ve done multiple test drives of the model 3 performance and now own a Model Y. Everything below is my opinion and sample size of one… etc. The model 3 is a great handling car - closest compare is a 2012ish BMW 335xi. It’s heavier and you can feel it in turns, but you can feel the low center of gravity, and the grip/acceleration curve compensates it out. For street use the tires grip and the car overall overpowers its weight. The suspension is good, really reminding me of the BMW. Note suspension is tuned like a BMW with surprisingly similar dampening but overall is not as mature as the 335xi was - on super bumpy roads the tires will stay in contact with the ground but you will feel the difference. The model 3 not going to be close to a Miata, but in its size class it’s a great time. I would totally buy one, and almost did; it always puts a smile on my face. The model Y is not nearly as maneuverable, but the low center of gravity really helps in turns. It’s better than I expected from a CUV/SUV. Not in the same league as the model 3. Tesla is really good about test drives - I’d highly recommend it. Even if you never buy one, it’s a solid experience.
- nradov 3y ago
  Why is the Model 3 suspension so bad? I haven't driven one but I've ridden in several and the ride quality is way worse than ICE vehicles in a similar price range. Am I missing something or are the Tesla engineers just incompetent?
  - InvertedRhodium 3y ago
    Depends which model you're in - I have the performance version which has stiffer suspension and makes for a less comfortable ride. My friends has a new LR model that is noticeably smoother.
_yb2s 3y ago
IMO the VW eGolf is a great handling and driving car, also with real buttons for controls but didn’t have great range.
ricardobeat 3y ago
Those are definitely not sporty cars, you can add the Ioniq 5 to that list. Model 3, NIO, BYD, and to some extent VW and even the i3 or Zoe have much nicer handling. Their low center of gravity and perfect 50/50 weight distribution should actually give you more grip and stability than the equivalent gas burner.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  Right, but as per my parallel post, now we're comparing potatoes to kitchen sinks. The original post did not specify the EV they spoke about, and I disagreed with generic comment that "ICE drives like shit, EV drives awesome!". This is not to claim EVs don't exist that handle well! "Sporty EVs exist" can be taken as a given I think. But so do ICE! :) It has not been my personal experience that moderately priced EV (not "cheap EVs", as such a thing doesn't exist here in Canada), are particularly well handling for their class, for all the other pros and cons that they may have.
brandonagr2 3y ago
A Tesla doesn't have to be a second car, you can drive anywhere in the country using the supercharger network. https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map

throwaway2037 3y ago

Tesla Model 3 in California costs about 25,000 USD after gov't rebates. Is this really too "just.so.expensive"?

NikolaNovak 3y ago
Tesla model 3 is 54k CAD officially. I've heard rumours of people being able to buy it that price but never met an actual person or even heard of a cousins best friend who did. Cheapest anybody has been able to get it that I'm aware of is 60ish K CAD, plus usual stuff (taxes delivery etc). That's... A lot of money for a car. We just bought a nice 5 door hatchback for 19kcad (25k cad all in) . It's not a comparable car on any granular metric, but it's a car! It takes me places! At literally one Third the price. If I want to go for fun, I can get a wrx for 35k or gti for 40. If I want a practical car I can get a minivan for 40k or any number of (ugh) SUVs. Tesla 3 on the other hand is a luxury, not a practical choice. It'll never ever ever pay off on cost/economy basis. And that's ok! Luxury cars exist and are great,for those who want and can afford them. It may be fun and enjoyable and status symbol, but it's the Apple of cars. Some people are into it while many of us balk at the value proposition (or perceived lack thereof). So yes - it's just. So. Expensive! For me at least, when I look at other options and alternatives :). edit/addition: Same is the case for most other EVs. Nissan Leaf starts at 42k CAD, Mazda 3 starts at 24k CAD. Ioniq 5 starts at 51K CAD, VW Taos starts at 30k. Basically, EVs are $12k - $25k more than ICE cars, where I'm at. And $12K is a lot of money! That's how much whole cars used to cost as recently as 3 years ago (and you can still get a brand new car for $15k though you probably shouldn't:). Again, it's a bit of HN bubble, or possibly California special circumstances, where Tesla can even begin to be discussed as an affordable :-/
- zzleeper 3y ago
  Random q but what car did you get? I'm looking at replacements for my 11-yr old Hyundai 5-door hatchback :)
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    We got the Kia Rio LX+. https://www.kia.ca/en/vehicles/2023/rio/specs?trimCode=RO853P https://www.kia.ca/en/vehicles/2023/rio/specs?trimCode=RO853... Background, FWIW :) * We have a Honda Odyssey as the primary family vehicle for ourselves and our kids. It's a very nice, very practical, very large car. As a family car travelling with kids, we love it! You do feel a little ridiculous if you're driving somewhere as a lone driver though. Did I mention it's big?? :-) * I work from home and my wife had a hybrid job so we got away with Minivan as the primary car, occasionally supported by my 20yo Subaru WRX * However, our occasional second car is increasingly a rustbucket, as as my wife needs to go to work physically more, the 20yo WRX (manual gear etc) is less and less a viable option for us * We bought a used car this summer, safetied, from people we are kinda-sorta connected through our network, and ended up being completely fleeced. After several mechanics review ended up writing off the entire car. Between that and other people's experiences and long searches, we are completely soured on used car market right now, at least here in Ontario, in terms of prices and reliability. It's insane. * We need a cheap basic car for work commute and situations when we need to do two things at once. We are still paying monthly financing on the Oddyssey so our budget is limited. We don't necessarily need it to last forever but we need it to be basic and largely reliable and comfortable for next 5-8 years. * We looked at Mitsubishi Mirage, which is currently the cheapest new car in Canada, but it had too many tradeoffs * Kia Rio LX+ is the second cheapest car in Canada but is a significant step up. It drives fine, looks fine, comfortable, visibility is good (shockingly a rarity these days), roomy enough (I'm 189cm / 6'2"), has A/C and Carplay/Android Auto etc. Honestly not missing ANYthing I need for a basic, practical car. * Massive bonus: great, great control scheme. I love the control scheme of Hyundai & Kia last few years. Reasonable buttons in reasonable places, reasonably well found without looking for them. SO MANY modern cars sacrifice usability for some perceived fashion/looks, and it's a massive turn off. Kia's controls are like a Nikon DSLR - sure they're somewhat "old fashioned", but they're based on all the usability lessons learned we have at our disposal. It works and works well. Thus endeth the sermon :-> * FWIW, In Canada at least, the availability of cars I personally like is dwindling. Manufacturers are doubling down on the large SUVs (ugh!), and subcompact hatchbacks (Mazda 2, Ford Fiesta etc) are completely disappearing. I understand it's even the last year for the Kia Rio, and I can't seem to find regular Golf/Rabbit (only GTI/R) either. Depending on if your Hyundai 5-door is the Accent or Elantra GT, you might find the current Rio a very natural replacement :) The other car we looked at is the Subaru Impreza or RS; that's the car we would've liked to get, especially given my old WRX, but given our usage patterns, paying $10k more was not a good value for us at this time. Hope that helps!
LeafItAlone 3y ago
I’m seeing $28,490 for a CA zip code. For the cheapest Model 3. After that’s rebates and “est. gas savings of $3,000 over 3 years”. So that’s $31,490. About 25% more than 25k. Misleading on price does a disservice to potential buyers.
function_seven 3y ago
I just priced out a base Model 3. No options whatsoever. The price—including Federal, State, and utility subsidies—is $34,185. I included sales tax. Without that it's still $30,630, but I don't think it's fair to include government subsidies but exclude government taxes when determining the effective cost of the car. Here's the breakdown: Vehicle Price $38,990 Destination Fee 1,390 Order Fee 250 Sales Tax 3,555 Federal Tax Credit (7,500) Calif Tax Credit (2,000) Utility Rebate (500) ————————— $34,185
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  Canadian prices are similar, but looks like the rebate is significantly different: https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/inventory/new/m3?arrangeby=relevance&zip=L7G3x8&range=200 https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/inventory/new/m3?arrangeby=relev... Prices range $53k - $65k CAD (prior to any fees / taxes etc), which would make the cheapest one 38k, in line with price you indicated. Our incentive though is "up to $5k CAD" which is up to ~3,600USD rebate. (basically, nowhere near 25k USD however it is sliced :( )
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    oil & gas run the country

Royce-CMR 3y ago

I’ve done multiple test drives of the model 3 performance and now own a Model Y. Everything below is my opinion and sample size of one… etc. The model 3 is a great handling car - closest compare is a 2012ish BMW 335xi. It’s heavier and you can feel it in turns, but you can feel the low center of gravity, and the grip/acceleration curve compensates it out. For street use the tires grip and the car overall overpowers its weight. The suspension is good, really reminding me of the BMW. Note suspension is tuned like a BMW with surprisingly similar dampening but overall is not as mature as the 335xi was - on super bumpy roads the tires will stay in contact with the ground but you will feel the difference. The model 3 not going to be close to a Miata, but in its size class it’s a great time. I would totally buy one, and almost did; it always puts a smile on my face. The model Y is not nearly as maneuverable, but the low center of gravity really helps in turns. It’s better than I expected from a CUV/SUV. Not in the same league as the model 3. Tesla is really good about test drives - I’d highly recommend it. Even if you never buy one, it’s a solid experience.

nradov 3y ago
Why is the Model 3 suspension so bad? I haven't driven one but I've ridden in several and the ride quality is way worse than ICE vehicles in a similar price range. Am I missing something or are the Tesla engineers just incompetent?
- InvertedRhodium 3y ago
  Depends which model you're in - I have the performance version which has stiffer suspension and makes for a less comfortable ride. My friends has a new LR model that is noticeably smoother.

_yb2s 3y ago

IMO the VW eGolf is a great handling and driving car, also with real buttons for controls but didn’t have great range.

ricardobeat 3y ago

Those are definitely not sporty cars, you can add the Ioniq 5 to that list. Model 3, NIO, BYD, and to some extent VW and even the i3 or Zoe have much nicer handling. Their low center of gravity and perfect 50/50 weight distribution should actually give you more grip and stability than the equivalent gas burner.

NikolaNovak 3y ago
Right, but as per my parallel post, now we're comparing potatoes to kitchen sinks. The original post did not specify the EV they spoke about, and I disagreed with generic comment that "ICE drives like shit, EV drives awesome!". This is not to claim EVs don't exist that handle well! "Sporty EVs exist" can be taken as a given I think. But so do ICE! :) It has not been my personal experience that moderately priced EV (not "cheap EVs", as such a thing doesn't exist here in Canada), are particularly well handling for their class, for all the other pros and cons that they may have.

brandonagr2 3y ago

A Tesla doesn't have to be a second car, you can drive anywhere in the country using the supercharger network. https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map