11 ms·

Young people would sacrifice other perks for a 4-day workweek

182 points by robtherobber 3y ago

jt2190 3y ago
Source for the article: “Younger workers want a 4-day workweek — and some would give up remote work or higher pay for it” https://www.bankrate.com/personal-finance/younger-workers-want-four-day-workweek/ https://www.bankrate.com/personal-finance/younger-workers-wa... > Close to 8 in 10 Gen X and baby boomer workers (or 78 percent for those between the ages of 43 and 77 combined) support a four-day workweek. > But younger workers indicate they’re willing to go to greater lengths for the schedule, and it sets them apart. More than 9 in 10 of Gen Z and millennial workers who prefer a four-day work week (or 92 percent) would still be willing to work that schedule if it meant giving something up, versus 86 percent of Gen X and baby boomers. > The steps those younger workers say they would be willing to take include working longer hours (48 percent), changing jobs or companies (35 percent) and coming into the office or working fully in person (33 percent) to have three days off a week. Some would even be willing to take less vacation time (20 percent), accept a pay cut (13 percent) or take a step back in their careers (12 percent) for it.
- sharemywin 3y ago
  The title makes it sound like they'd sacrifice allot but when you look at the percentages it's mostly just I'd like to work 4-10s.
  - Arrath 3y ago
    The happiest stint of my career was working steady 4-10s. So yeah, I fully support the idea.
  - safety1st 3y ago
    Which is interesting, because I feel like I'm lucky when I have the focus to do even 4 hours of high intensity, cognitively demanding work in a day. Much of the rest of that day is fluffing around, meetings or doing stuff that seems like it could probably be delegated or automated with the right setup.
    - sharemywin 3y ago
      which is why they would happily support it. I'll sit around for another 2 hours and give you the same 4 hours worth of work. I feel like people that do meeting all day have no idea how draining coding is. Hey, I can't look at code for longer than 2 seconds but could you spend 8 hours doing it.
- SamuelAdams 3y ago
  If they (or you, or anyone) want a 4 day work week, then why not pick a profession that allows it? Most healthcare related fields work in 12 hour shifts, so working 3-4 days a week is the normal standard. Not every professional job is an office job 9-5.
  - NeoTar 3y ago
    Because changing a profession is really hard, and at a certain point in your life basically impossible without a big pay cut.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - doctorwho42 3y ago
    Because the implication is that a 4 day work week would be 8 hour days. Not 4 days with 40+ hours.
  - footy 3y ago
    why would you think software doesn't allow it? I know plenty of people who work 4 day workweeks, including myself.
hombre_fatal 3y ago
I took a $50k job in my late 20s just for full remote with no calls/meetings, just Github issues and a chat app for synchronization. I felt pathetic accepting the offer especially after my counteroffer was rejected (imagine your bluff failing here, lmao), but I remembered sitting in meetings for a higher paying job fantasizing about how I'd give half my salary away just to have no meetings and living on a beach surfing in the mornings. And that's what I did.
- __s 3y ago
  How long ago was this? & where? My first job in 2012 was 30k/year, after that 25k/year in 2015. & these are CAD, not USD. I didn't feel pathetic, I felt lucky getting to stay inside during the winter instead of working 12/hr flooring Guess it's harder when you've had the higher salary already. For me I'd skipped college, so was building a resume
  - hombre_fatal 3y ago
    My first job out of uni in 2011 was 50k USD as a Ruby on Rails software dev in Austin. What feels pathetic is when, 10 years later, you are making the same salary again. But at least I was surfing on a beach in Mexico this time around. I was really happy. Maybe that's priceless.
- potatoman22 3y ago
  Was it worth it? How'd they keep their commitment to no calls/meetings? I'd be worried about the employer reneging on that.
  - paulcole 3y ago
    When I negotiate with someone on something like this, I make it (relatively) painful for the company to break the rule. Full day pay bonus if we text/call someone on a non-scheduled work day, no matter how trivial the issue and no matter if they pick up or reply. So we don’t get a guarantee that the issue is resolved and they’re not obligated to help (if they do, they also get paid for working that day, obviously).
solarpunk 3y ago
Degrowth ironically growing in popularity.
- i67vw3 3y ago
  And offshore jobs (china, india) growing simultaneously.
  - somsak2 3y ago
    source for this? what I've seen suggests that this trend isn't growing more than it historically has been.
    - i67vw3 3y ago
      I did not mean necessarily offshore jobs like tech call centres but capital which is sent into 'growing/emerging economies' creating various manufacturing jobs in india/china/SE Asia where human resources can be used 'efficiently'.
- hypeatei 3y ago
  Good. "Growth at all costs" mindset is not sustainable or good for anyone but the upper echelons of society.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Also in this thread: "We demand more cheap housing!"
    - HappMacDonald 3y ago
      The only possible person who would not value that would be a rentier. High housing costs benefit literally nobody but investors trying to wring ever more profit out of the basic needs of their fellow human beings. They sunk a lot of money into a get-rich-quick scheme and get upset when anyone suggests curbing said scheme for humanitarian reasons. That money must come from somewhere, and everyone who has to constantly finance those gains with no benefit in return will find a way to change it. Have fun!
nine_zeros 3y ago
If there's one thing that has truly happened with the pandemic, it's that it has exposed the psychopathy of grinding in corporations, and made people more aware of the value of their own lives. Thus, leading to large masses of people not caring about the corporate and management nonsense. For folks who are concerned about younglings not working hard enough or China will take over or some other boomer ideology, this is even happening among youth in developing countries. Solution: People want to be treated with respect and dignity. That's it. As long as companies treat people as fungible factory workers, companies will be in a constant churn of employees - especially as the newer generations are smaller in size.
onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
Young people don't want to work hard because there's little incentive. No matter how hard you work, unless you're in the top 5%, you're far priced out of most places most people want to live. You can afford everything comfortably beside housing & health care (which you don't need much of when you're young) on a relatively low wage in the US. So you've pretty much given up on housing. What's the point in working hard?
- notaustinpowers 3y ago
  Damn, I can't even afford healthcare at my current wage in digital marketing. The plans I've found would take up about 10% of my yearly income and I'm late-20's, healthy, no pre-existing, non-smoker, etc. Even with that, the pay is barely enough to qualify me for my apartment, which is artificially low in rent since I moved in during peak COVID and have had low rent increases.
- mhb 3y ago
  The Ants and the Grasshopper - Aesop https://read.gov/aesop/052.html https://read.gov/aesop/052.html
  - jncfhnb 3y ago
    Obviously irrelevant
    - mhb 3y ago
      Oh. Do say more. People don't want to work hard because, in general, people don't like to work.
      - jncfhnb 3y ago
        Your fable states that there is a time for work and a time for play, and contrasts a worker that did nothing vs workers that did work and can survive. The premise of the relevant discussion is that the marginal value of additional work and wages beyond the basic requirements is largely nothing. You cannot accrue meaningful savings, but still probably have enough disposable income to live comfortably enough, so it’s just a bad deal to work more. Very simply, the marginal utility of additional wages is much lower than the cost of working them at the rates being paid.
Tiktaalik 3y ago
In my experience working at a 4DWW company I saw the opposite. The happiest were the oldest, most established workers, because they had already ticked off all so many life goals, had a house, a dog, kids, etc and so less money and more time was great. In contrast the youngest workers had no stable housing, and wanted more money more than they wanted time, because they wanted an ability to buy themselves some of those lifestyle things the older workers already had (read: stable housing). In practice the young workers that needed more money simply used the other day for another job, which was their right. This was in an environment with a dysfunctional unaffordable housing market, so maybe this all just shows how important affordable housing is and how it eventually starts to trumps all other issues.
- doctorwho42 3y ago
  "so maybe this all just shows how important affordable housing is and how it eventually starts to Trump all other issues." Of course it does, and why anyone would think otherwise has baffled me my entire adult life. (1) in any survival class, for me boyscouts, you learn that first priority in any survival setting is shelter. (2) anyone living in the US in the last 60 years and has paid any attention to the homeless know how fast your life falls apart when you don't have a home. Countless stories of someone having a traumatic life event, and then being evicted with their entire life being tossed out on the curb by an uncaring landlord (3) a shelter is safety, it is engrained in ourselves that we feel safer and more secure when we have a dedicated place that is permanent. So of course shelter/affordable housing trumps almost everything else, it always has and always will. It is surprising how society has been, seemingly, brainwashed with the idea that housing has to be (a) an investment vehicle and (b) done for obscene profits.
- blitz_skull 3y ago
  These companies are so rare, why wouldn't the younger workers just go find a job with higher pay and less time off? It's not like they're being forced to work at a 4-Day Work Week company... They're kind of unicorns to find in the first place.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
syntaxing 3y ago
One way to think about it is that you’re getting a 20% pay bump. It’s not 1:1 exactly but I’m willing to bet a lot of people would trade certain perks for a 20% bump. But it’s a net loss for society to remove these perks. Being young means you don’t need these perks. You don’t give a damn about healthcare, child care, or life insurance. But you most likely will in a decade and getting it back these perks would be nearly impossible after you trade short terms gains for long term loss.
- hackideiomat 3y ago
  I'm willing to bet people with a 4 day week need their health insurance way less. (on average)
- kevincox 3y ago
  I don't think this is a reasonable way to think about it. You are getting 20% more *per hour* but that isn't the same as a 20% pay bump. It doesn't help you afford a house, raise kids or buy luxuries. (Unless you use that extra 20% time to find a different job that pays similar). Personally I would switch to a 4 day week with 20% less salary. I would probably even be more than 80% of my current productivity because I'm definitely less productive on many Fridays.
  - ellisv 3y ago
    The pay might be the same but you’d have more time for other things, which could include more work. One reason I stopped consulting on the side was a lack of time. Even my hobby projects have taken a backseat these days. I imagine some people would choose to work a part time job or learn a new skill, which would increase their income potential in the long run.
yardie 3y ago
Moving back to the US after living abroad I was used to month long holidays. I applied to a few companies and tried to negotiate 5 weeks PTO. They wouldn't budge. Then 4 weeks. Still no. I offered to drop my salary in exchange for vacation. Still no. I asked HR why everything else was negotiable except PTO and they told me I would have more time off then people who've been there for 7+ years. This was my first clue that there was a lot of momentum to keep you dependent on your employer and it doesn't stop with a paycheck. 10-12 days per year really restricts your mobility. Instead of backpacking through SE Asia for a month I basically used that time for Thanksgiving and/or Christmas. BTW, having 3 days off means you can sprinkle on additional vacation time throughout the year. I'm not surprised Gen-Z would negotiate less vacation time if they could use it more effectively.
- dkdbejwi383 3y ago
  I'm Australian but have lived in Europe for a long time. When I begin to consider moving back, one of the things that puts me off is that 4 weeks is pretty much universal in Australia, plus in Australia I think it's pretty standard to have a fixed number of days you're allowed to be sick. I'm too used to having 6 weeks holidays and essentially unlimited sick leave (as long as it's legitimately required). It's a more grown-up arrangement where businesses realise that regular time off (and as much time as you need if ill) increases happiness and therefore productivity. I still miss the food at home, though.
  - tansan 3y ago
    > It's a more grown-up arrangement where businesses realise that regular time off (and as much time as you need if ill) increases happiness and therefore productivity. Is there a metric of some sort that I can share with other people that demonstrates 4 weeks PTO does work and has led to increased productivity in Australia? I personally believe in shorter work weeks, but my experience is anecdotal, so was wondering if there was a study or some kind of economic metric that reflects that statement for increased productivity in AU.
    - e1g 3y ago
throw0101c 3y ago
[…] > Now it is true that the needs of human beings may seem to be insatiable. But they fall into two classes --those needs which are absolute in the sense that we feel them whatever the situation of our fellow human beings may be, and those which are relative in the sense that we feel them only if their satisfaction lifts us above, makes us feel superior to, our fellows. Needs of the second class, those which satisfy the desire for superiority, may indeed be insatiable; for the higher the general level, the higher still are they. But this is not so true of the absolute needs-a point may soon be reached, much sooner perhaps than we are all of us aware of, when these needs are satisfied in the sense that we prefer to devote our further energies to non-economic purposes. […] > For many ages to come the old Adam will be so strong in us that everybody will need to do some work if he is to be contented. We shall do more things for ourselves than is usual with the rich to-day, only too glad to have small duties and tasks and routines. But beyond this, we shall endeavour to spread the bread thin on the butter-to make what work there is still to be done to be as widely shared as possible. Three-hour shifts or a fifteen-hour week may put off the problem for a great while. For three hours a day is quite enough to satisfy the old Adam in most of us! * John Maynard Keynes, Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren (1930) * http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/keynes1.pdf http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/keynes1.pdf An essay putting forward / hypothesizing four reasons on why the above did not happen (We haven't spread the wealth around enough; People actually love working; There's no limit to human desires; Leisure is expensive): * https://www.vox.com/2014/11/20/7254877/keynes-work-leisure https://www.vox.com/2014/11/20/7254877/keynes-work-leisure
- irrational 3y ago
  Leisure is expensive. This year the kids have all week off for Thanksgiving. We said we should go and do something. Then we priced out a bunch of things and everything is far too expensive, so we are staying home.
RecycledEle 3y ago
Give us Wednesday off, not Friday. Then we can rest between 2-day work spurts.
- jgilias 3y ago
  Give us choice. I’ll take a long weekend over a midweek holiday any time. But I might want to vary it from time to time. So, choice.
- NeoTar 3y ago
  If we move to a four-day week as standard I hope we do it in a flexible way, so that some people don't work Monday, some people don't work Tuesday, etc. I acknowledge that could be difficult to manage in some industries (e.g. trying to get eight people together in a meeting), but it means that traffic would be lowered each working day, as well as people being more spread out when attending leisure activities (i.e.not everyone goes to the beach on a Saturday).
  - kevincox 3y ago
    > e.g. trying to get eight people together in a meeting This could potentially be mitigated by having some "common days" enforced. So maybe the whole company works monday and tuesday or something like that. Prefer putting smaller meetings on the other days (You should have at least 1 overlap day with everyone else assuming that everyone has weekends + 1 day of their choosing off) but for larger meetings those provide a high chance of finding a time.
- hotnfresh 3y ago
  1) Friday or Monday are more likely to be days off anyway, so you’re asking (slightly) less by asking for one of those. 2) Lots of people really like having longer stretches off, as it opens more options for things you can do with the time off. 3) If kids are off school, even for a non-holiday (teacher in-service, say) it’s often a Friday, so that’s a nice day for parents to have off. TL;DR there’s a pretty strong case for Friday and a somewhat less strong case for Monday. I expect employers and co-workers alike to prefer either of those over Wednesday.
- 3y ago
SamuelAdams 3y ago
If they (or you, or anyone) want a 4 day work week, then why not pick a profession that allows it? Most healthcare related fields work in 12 hour shifts, so working 3-4 days a week is the normal standard. Not every professional job is an office job 9-5.
- DangitBobby 3y ago
  No sweat, let me just go back to school and learn to be a healthcare professional.
  - SamuelAdams 3y ago
    I never said it would be easy: most things in life that are important are not easy. The point is that there are many different types of jobs with a variety of benefits, including non-traditional scheduling. If that is something important to you, why not work towards it? Healthcare is just one example. It’s not perfect either, there are problems for sure. But that is ok for some people who value something like a 3-4 day work week. No job is perfect, it’s all about what trade offs make it worth it to the employee.
    - Paul-Craft 3y ago
      There's "not easy," and there's "so costly and difficult as to be nonviable." Stop conflating the two.
- TwoFerMaggie 3y ago
  What point does this argument hold besides "it's what we do now so we don't change it"? Same thing could be argued when five-day work weeks were first proposed.
  - Clubber 3y ago
    I think his point is you can have a 4 day week now and not have to wait for corporations to comply (good luck with that).
yodsanklai 3y ago
I negociated a 4-day workweek for my first job when I was 23. 25 years later, I wouldn't do it. I'm worried for my retirement, I don't think I'll have enough saving to live in a safe and convenient place, and have access to good healthcare. This is the type of things you don't think of when you just graduate and are used to the student worklife.
- onion2k 3y ago
  A 4 day work week is not '4 days work for 80% of the money'. A 4 day work week today means working 4 days a week for the same money as a person working 5 days a week. Depending on the company that's either 10 hours a day for 4 days a week, or more commonly it's an 8 hour day for 4 days a week with an assumption (proven in many studies) than people work harder with less downtime for that 8 hours so consequently get the same amount of work done as their 10-hour-4-days and 5-day-week counterparts.
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    > A 4 day work week today means working 4 days a week for the same money as a person working 5 days a week Sure, but you'll have even less hope for a salary increase next year, since this is basically what it is. This was the theory behind France's move to the 35-hour workweek, too. They also expected companies to hire more people to compensate for less work being done. Didn't work out as expected.
    - ramraj07 3y ago
      What happened in France? The way I see it, as programmers we will be far more productive working fewer days per week and just taking more time to relax. If this assumption is accurate you have to do nothing to compensate.
      - vladvasiliu 3y ago
        Sure, I think there's a big difference between programmers (and similar) and the situation in France at the time, when most people affected by this were factory workers, who didn't have themselves much influence over how productive they were (aside from the obvious issues of not showing up / slacking off). Basically, "nothing" happened. The expected drop in unemployment never materialized. And although pay rises never were an expected effect of the change (from what I know), they were negatively impacted. I'm not knowledgeable enough in those matters, so I may be off base, but it would seem that companies started to be less "competitive" when the rule started to be applied, in 2000-2002. But from what I've read on the subject, none of the sides (for and against the measure) can prove that it was undoubtedly a good or a bad thing. > The way I see it, as programmers we will be far more productive working fewer days per week and just taking more time to relax. If this assumption is accurate you have to do nothing to compensate. I agree with this. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to make this kind of decision. And it's pretty clear to me that many managers don't think this way, and somehow figure that your productivity is roughly constant and proportional to the time your butt spends in your seat (at least up to a point).
bunderbunder 3y ago
I would sacrifice >20% of my pay for a 4-day work week.
- hypeatei 3y ago
  You shouldn't, though. Negotiate the same pay but 4-days a week instead of 5. As workers, we shouldn't lower our expectations or standards for employers. It hurts us all.
devjab 3y ago
I had a 4 day workweek for a period of time after I got diagnosed with ADHD in a ripe age. Eventually bumped it back up to 5 days because it paid me 1/5 more. My efficiency, however, is around the same, or even slightly lower, than it was when I was working 4 days. Which isn't low enough to cause me any issues, but it's also sort of silly that I get paid more for the same/less solely due to spending more hours in the office and not for the work I'm actually performing. This isn't because I'm quiet quitting or whatever trend there is hip with the anti-work crowd, it's simply because I'm more tired and I perform worse when I'm tired.
- city41 3y ago
  I did a 6 month stint with 4 day work days and I noticed the same thing. I think I was more productive when I had that added day of rest and yeah they paid me 1/5 less. I didn't mind the pay cut because I was much happier. It's pretty amazing what an extra day of rest does for you.
Euphorbium 3y ago
Should be fighting for a 3 day work week by now, not a 4.
- epaulson 3y ago
  During spring of 2020 at the very beginning of COVID my (100K+ person) company furloughed all of us for about 12 days, but most of us had to take it as 2 days of unpaid time off per week, so we effectively had 3 day work weeks. I have to say that felt a little too short and it always felt like it was a scramble to get things done. 4 day weeks feel a lot more comfortable.
- gruez 3y ago
  3 days? Why settle for so little? Ask for 2, he'll 1 day work week!
epups 3y ago
This is a huge trend in Europe. A sizable portion of people I know are simply deciding to work as little as possible, even if that means getting paid less. The general perception is that there is no point in saving for a house or for retirement, and many perceive the career ladder game to be a fool's errand. So they just want to get enough money to live at present.
LeanderK 3y ago
I've seen some strange criticisms after a friend of mine transitioned to a 4-day week. Like whether he has any ambitions, doesn't want to work etc. He is a very committed, good programmer really kinda keeping the company running. I bet he gets more stuff done in 4 days than others in 5. But he has a very active private, social life. He goes a lot on vacations, has hobbies or is just actively enjoying life. He's also in europe so quite a bit of vacation. Programmers usually have a comfortable salary, even with 80% you're still above average and have a lot of disposable income. Maybe a smaller apartment but who cares. He has such an enormous quality of life that I kinda suspect that all the ones got it wrong. In the end life is not about grinding for the man, it's just a means to an end. They should justify themselves, not him. It's also really stupid considering how committed he is, he just has a rich life besides work. I see others just working inefficiently, trying to dodge responsibility and being kinda lazy. But he get's criticised.
- francisofascii 3y ago
  Who criticizes him?
  - LeanderK 3y ago
    Not colleagues, but people outside his work (it's an advanced startup, so everyone still knows everyone). For example older relatives or random people who found out he works 80%. Sometimes it's really a random condescending person.
- myaccountonhn 3y ago
  I work 4 days a week and never received this criticism.
  - LeanderK 3y ago
    maybe it's cultural? I'm in germany for the context
miiiiiike 3y ago
I give myself a fixed number of "hands on keyboard" hours that I need to meet each week and track my time to the second. If I hit my number in four days, hey, three day weekend. If I don't hit it by Friday, I'm working Saturday. I love it. I want to keep doing this for as long as I can.
- somsak2 3y ago
  Mind me asking how many hours that is? Does it include meetings?
  - miiiiiike 3y ago
    Four, as of this year. I don’t include meetings.
harryquach 3y ago
Old people will also!
nunez 3y ago
I hope the four day workweek is an actual four day workweek (I.e. 32 hr weeks) and not 10x4's. Those are worse.
goqu 3y ago
Here is one thing about 4 day week that opens eyes. If you are let's say 35 and hope to retire at 60, switching to a 4 day week could save you about 1,300 workdays—that's, roughly 3.5 years. The 5-minute window where my funny 4 day week calculator will shine: https://okjob.io/4-day-week-calculator/ https://okjob.io/4-day-week-calculator/
sonicanatidae 3y ago
Older people as well. :)
RexFactorem 3y ago
If ppl got the same quality of life our grandparents and maybe some parents got, I'm sure this wouldn't be a topic.

182 points by robtherobber 3y ago

Source for the article: “Younger workers want a 4-day workweek — and some would give up remote work or higher pay for it” https://www.bankrate.com/personal-finance/younger-workers-want-four-day-workweek/ https://www.bankrate.com/personal-finance/younger-workers-wa... > Close to 8 in 10 Gen X and baby boomer workers (or 78 percent for those between the ages of 43 and 77 combined) support a four-day workweek. > But younger workers indicate they’re willing to go to greater lengths for the schedule, and it sets them apart. More than 9 in 10 of Gen Z and millennial workers who prefer a four-day work week (or 92 percent) would still be willing to work that schedule if it meant giving something up, versus 86 percent of Gen X and baby boomers. > The steps those younger workers say they would be willing to take include working longer hours (48 percent), changing jobs or companies (35 percent) and coming into the office or working fully in person (33 percent) to have three days off a week. Some would even be willing to take less vacation time (20 percent), accept a pay cut (13 percent) or take a step back in their careers (12 percent) for it.

sharemywin 3y ago
The title makes it sound like they'd sacrifice allot but when you look at the percentages it's mostly just I'd like to work 4-10s.
- Arrath 3y ago
  The happiest stint of my career was working steady 4-10s. So yeah, I fully support the idea.
- safety1st 3y ago
  Which is interesting, because I feel like I'm lucky when I have the focus to do even 4 hours of high intensity, cognitively demanding work in a day. Much of the rest of that day is fluffing around, meetings or doing stuff that seems like it could probably be delegated or automated with the right setup.
  - sharemywin 3y ago
    which is why they would happily support it. I'll sit around for another 2 hours and give you the same 4 hours worth of work. I feel like people that do meeting all day have no idea how draining coding is. Hey, I can't look at code for longer than 2 seconds but could you spend 8 hours doing it.
SamuelAdams 3y ago
If they (or you, or anyone) want a 4 day work week, then why not pick a profession that allows it? Most healthcare related fields work in 12 hour shifts, so working 3-4 days a week is the normal standard. Not every professional job is an office job 9-5.
- NeoTar 3y ago
  Because changing a profession is really hard, and at a certain point in your life basically impossible without a big pay cut.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- doctorwho42 3y ago
  Because the implication is that a 4 day work week would be 8 hour days. Not 4 days with 40+ hours.
- footy 3y ago
  why would you think software doesn't allow it? I know plenty of people who work 4 day workweeks, including myself.

hombre_fatal 3y ago

I took a $50k job in my late 20s just for full remote with no calls/meetings, just Github issues and a chat app for synchronization. I felt pathetic accepting the offer especially after my counteroffer was rejected (imagine your bluff failing here, lmao), but I remembered sitting in meetings for a higher paying job fantasizing about how I'd give half my salary away just to have no meetings and living on a beach surfing in the mornings. And that's what I did.

__s 3y ago
How long ago was this? & where? My first job in 2012 was 30k/year, after that 25k/year in 2015. & these are CAD, not USD. I didn't feel pathetic, I felt lucky getting to stay inside during the winter instead of working 12/hr flooring Guess it's harder when you've had the higher salary already. For me I'd skipped college, so was building a resume
- hombre_fatal 3y ago
  My first job out of uni in 2011 was 50k USD as a Ruby on Rails software dev in Austin. What feels pathetic is when, 10 years later, you are making the same salary again. But at least I was surfing on a beach in Mexico this time around. I was really happy. Maybe that's priceless.
potatoman22 3y ago
Was it worth it? How'd they keep their commitment to no calls/meetings? I'd be worried about the employer reneging on that.
- paulcole 3y ago
  When I negotiate with someone on something like this, I make it (relatively) painful for the company to break the rule. Full day pay bonus if we text/call someone on a non-scheduled work day, no matter how trivial the issue and no matter if they pick up or reply. So we don’t get a guarantee that the issue is resolved and they’re not obligated to help (if they do, they also get paid for working that day, obviously).

solarpunk 3y ago

Degrowth ironically growing in popularity.

i67vw3 3y ago
And offshore jobs (china, india) growing simultaneously.
- somsak2 3y ago
  source for this? what I've seen suggests that this trend isn't growing more than it historically has been.
  - i67vw3 3y ago
    I did not mean necessarily offshore jobs like tech call centres but capital which is sent into 'growing/emerging economies' creating various manufacturing jobs in india/china/SE Asia where human resources can be used 'efficiently'.
hypeatei 3y ago
Good. "Growth at all costs" mindset is not sustainable or good for anyone but the upper echelons of society.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Also in this thread: "We demand more cheap housing!"
  - HappMacDonald 3y ago
    The only possible person who would not value that would be a rentier. High housing costs benefit literally nobody but investors trying to wring ever more profit out of the basic needs of their fellow human beings. They sunk a lot of money into a get-rich-quick scheme and get upset when anyone suggests curbing said scheme for humanitarian reasons. That money must come from somewhere, and everyone who has to constantly finance those gains with no benefit in return will find a way to change it. Have fun!

nine_zeros 3y ago

If there's one thing that has truly happened with the pandemic, it's that it has exposed the psychopathy of grinding in corporations, and made people more aware of the value of their own lives. Thus, leading to large masses of people not caring about the corporate and management nonsense. For folks who are concerned about younglings not working hard enough or China will take over or some other boomer ideology, this is even happening among youth in developing countries. Solution: People want to be treated with respect and dignity. That's it. As long as companies treat people as fungible factory workers, companies will be in a constant churn of employees - especially as the newer generations are smaller in size.

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago

Young people don't want to work hard because there's little incentive. No matter how hard you work, unless you're in the top 5%, you're far priced out of most places most people want to live. You can afford everything comfortably beside housing & health care (which you don't need much of when you're young) on a relatively low wage in the US. So you've pretty much given up on housing. What's the point in working hard?

notaustinpowers 3y ago
Damn, I can't even afford healthcare at my current wage in digital marketing. The plans I've found would take up about 10% of my yearly income and I'm late-20's, healthy, no pre-existing, non-smoker, etc. Even with that, the pay is barely enough to qualify me for my apartment, which is artificially low in rent since I moved in during peak COVID and have had low rent increases.
mhb 3y ago
The Ants and the Grasshopper - Aesop https://read.gov/aesop/052.html https://read.gov/aesop/052.html
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  Obviously irrelevant
  - mhb 3y ago
    Oh. Do say more. People don't want to work hard because, in general, people don't like to work.
    - jncfhnb 3y ago
      Your fable states that there is a time for work and a time for play, and contrasts a worker that did nothing vs workers that did work and can survive. The premise of the relevant discussion is that the marginal value of additional work and wages beyond the basic requirements is largely nothing. You cannot accrue meaningful savings, but still probably have enough disposable income to live comfortably enough, so it’s just a bad deal to work more. Very simply, the marginal utility of additional wages is much lower than the cost of working them at the rates being paid.

Tiktaalik 3y ago

In my experience working at a 4DWW company I saw the opposite. The happiest were the oldest, most established workers, because they had already ticked off all so many life goals, had a house, a dog, kids, etc and so less money and more time was great. In contrast the youngest workers had no stable housing, and wanted more money more than they wanted time, because they wanted an ability to buy themselves some of those lifestyle things the older workers already had (read: stable housing). In practice the young workers that needed more money simply used the other day for another job, which was their right. This was in an environment with a dysfunctional unaffordable housing market, so maybe this all just shows how important affordable housing is and how it eventually starts to trumps all other issues.

doctorwho42 3y ago
"so maybe this all just shows how important affordable housing is and how it eventually starts to Trump all other issues." Of course it does, and why anyone would think otherwise has baffled me my entire adult life. (1) in any survival class, for me boyscouts, you learn that first priority in any survival setting is shelter. (2) anyone living in the US in the last 60 years and has paid any attention to the homeless know how fast your life falls apart when you don't have a home. Countless stories of someone having a traumatic life event, and then being evicted with their entire life being tossed out on the curb by an uncaring landlord (3) a shelter is safety, it is engrained in ourselves that we feel safer and more secure when we have a dedicated place that is permanent. So of course shelter/affordable housing trumps almost everything else, it always has and always will. It is surprising how society has been, seemingly, brainwashed with the idea that housing has to be (a) an investment vehicle and (b) done for obscene profits.
blitz_skull 3y ago
These companies are so rare, why wouldn't the younger workers just go find a job with higher pay and less time off? It's not like they're being forced to work at a 4-Day Work Week company... They're kind of unicorns to find in the first place.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago

syntaxing 3y ago

One way to think about it is that you’re getting a 20% pay bump. It’s not 1:1 exactly but I’m willing to bet a lot of people would trade certain perks for a 20% bump. But it’s a net loss for society to remove these perks. Being young means you don’t need these perks. You don’t give a damn about healthcare, child care, or life insurance. But you most likely will in a decade and getting it back these perks would be nearly impossible after you trade short terms gains for long term loss.

hackideiomat 3y ago
I'm willing to bet people with a 4 day week need their health insurance way less. (on average)
kevincox 3y ago
I don't think this is a reasonable way to think about it. You are getting 20% more *per hour* but that isn't the same as a 20% pay bump. It doesn't help you afford a house, raise kids or buy luxuries. (Unless you use that extra 20% time to find a different job that pays similar). Personally I would switch to a 4 day week with 20% less salary. I would probably even be more than 80% of my current productivity because I'm definitely less productive on many Fridays.
- ellisv 3y ago
  The pay might be the same but you’d have more time for other things, which could include more work. One reason I stopped consulting on the side was a lack of time. Even my hobby projects have taken a backseat these days. I imagine some people would choose to work a part time job or learn a new skill, which would increase their income potential in the long run.

yardie 3y ago

Moving back to the US after living abroad I was used to month long holidays. I applied to a few companies and tried to negotiate 5 weeks PTO. They wouldn't budge. Then 4 weeks. Still no. I offered to drop my salary in exchange for vacation. Still no. I asked HR why everything else was negotiable except PTO and they told me I would have more time off then people who've been there for 7+ years. This was my first clue that there was a lot of momentum to keep you dependent on your employer and it doesn't stop with a paycheck. 10-12 days per year really restricts your mobility. Instead of backpacking through SE Asia for a month I basically used that time for Thanksgiving and/or Christmas. BTW, having 3 days off means you can sprinkle on additional vacation time throughout the year. I'm not surprised Gen-Z would negotiate less vacation time if they could use it more effectively.

dkdbejwi383 3y ago
I'm Australian but have lived in Europe for a long time. When I begin to consider moving back, one of the things that puts me off is that 4 weeks is pretty much universal in Australia, plus in Australia I think it's pretty standard to have a fixed number of days you're allowed to be sick. I'm too used to having 6 weeks holidays and essentially unlimited sick leave (as long as it's legitimately required). It's a more grown-up arrangement where businesses realise that regular time off (and as much time as you need if ill) increases happiness and therefore productivity. I still miss the food at home, though.
- tansan 3y ago
  > It's a more grown-up arrangement where businesses realise that regular time off (and as much time as you need if ill) increases happiness and therefore productivity. Is there a metric of some sort that I can share with other people that demonstrates 4 weeks PTO does work and has led to increased productivity in Australia? I personally believe in shorter work weeks, but my experience is anecdotal, so was wondering if there was a study or some kind of economic metric that reflects that statement for increased productivity in AU.
  - e1g 3y ago

throw0101c 3y ago

[…] > Now it is true that the needs of human beings may seem to be insatiable. But they fall into two classes --those needs which are absolute in the sense that we feel them whatever the situation of our fellow human beings may be, and those which are relative in the sense that we feel them only if their satisfaction lifts us above, makes us feel superior to, our fellows. Needs of the second class, those which satisfy the desire for superiority, may indeed be insatiable; for the higher the general level, the higher still are they. But this is not so true of the absolute needs-a point may soon be reached, much sooner perhaps than we are all of us aware of, when these needs are satisfied in the sense that we prefer to devote our further energies to non-economic purposes. […] > For many ages to come the old Adam will be so strong in us that everybody will need to do some work if he is to be contented. We shall do more things for ourselves than is usual with the rich to-day, only too glad to have small duties and tasks and routines. But beyond this, we shall endeavour to spread the bread thin on the butter-to make what work there is still to be done to be as widely shared as possible. Three-hour shifts or a fifteen-hour week may put off the problem for a great while. For three hours a day is quite enough to satisfy the old Adam in most of us! * John Maynard Keynes, Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren (1930) * http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/keynes1.pdf http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/keynes1.pdf An essay putting forward / hypothesizing four reasons on why the above did not happen (We haven't spread the wealth around enough; People actually love working; There's no limit to human desires; Leisure is expensive): * https://www.vox.com/2014/11/20/7254877/keynes-work-leisure https://www.vox.com/2014/11/20/7254877/keynes-work-leisure

irrational 3y ago
Leisure is expensive. This year the kids have all week off for Thanksgiving. We said we should go and do something. Then we priced out a bunch of things and everything is far too expensive, so we are staying home.

RecycledEle 3y ago

Give us Wednesday off, not Friday. Then we can rest between 2-day work spurts.

jgilias 3y ago
Give us choice. I’ll take a long weekend over a midweek holiday any time. But I might want to vary it from time to time. So, choice.
NeoTar 3y ago
If we move to a four-day week as standard I hope we do it in a flexible way, so that some people don't work Monday, some people don't work Tuesday, etc. I acknowledge that could be difficult to manage in some industries (e.g. trying to get eight people together in a meeting), but it means that traffic would be lowered each working day, as well as people being more spread out when attending leisure activities (i.e.not everyone goes to the beach on a Saturday).
- kevincox 3y ago
  > e.g. trying to get eight people together in a meeting This could potentially be mitigated by having some "common days" enforced. So maybe the whole company works monday and tuesday or something like that. Prefer putting smaller meetings on the other days (You should have at least 1 overlap day with everyone else assuming that everyone has weekends + 1 day of their choosing off) but for larger meetings those provide a high chance of finding a time.
hotnfresh 3y ago
1) Friday or Monday are more likely to be days off anyway, so you’re asking (slightly) less by asking for one of those. 2) Lots of people really like having longer stretches off, as it opens more options for things you can do with the time off. 3) If kids are off school, even for a non-holiday (teacher in-service, say) it’s often a Friday, so that’s a nice day for parents to have off. TL;DR there’s a pretty strong case for Friday and a somewhat less strong case for Monday. I expect employers and co-workers alike to prefer either of those over Wednesday.
3y ago

SamuelAdams 3y ago

If they (or you, or anyone) want a 4 day work week, then why not pick a profession that allows it? Most healthcare related fields work in 12 hour shifts, so working 3-4 days a week is the normal standard. Not every professional job is an office job 9-5.

DangitBobby 3y ago
No sweat, let me just go back to school and learn to be a healthcare professional.
- SamuelAdams 3y ago
  I never said it would be easy: most things in life that are important are not easy. The point is that there are many different types of jobs with a variety of benefits, including non-traditional scheduling. If that is something important to you, why not work towards it? Healthcare is just one example. It’s not perfect either, there are problems for sure. But that is ok for some people who value something like a 3-4 day work week. No job is perfect, it’s all about what trade offs make it worth it to the employee.
  - Paul-Craft 3y ago
    There's "not easy," and there's "so costly and difficult as to be nonviable." Stop conflating the two.
TwoFerMaggie 3y ago
What point does this argument hold besides "it's what we do now so we don't change it"? Same thing could be argued when five-day work weeks were first proposed.
- Clubber 3y ago
  I think his point is you can have a 4 day week now and not have to wait for corporations to comply (good luck with that).

yodsanklai 3y ago

I negociated a 4-day workweek for my first job when I was 23. 25 years later, I wouldn't do it. I'm worried for my retirement, I don't think I'll have enough saving to live in a safe and convenient place, and have access to good healthcare. This is the type of things you don't think of when you just graduate and are used to the student worklife.

onion2k 3y ago
A 4 day work week is not '4 days work for 80% of the money'. A 4 day work week today means working 4 days a week for the same money as a person working 5 days a week. Depending on the company that's either 10 hours a day for 4 days a week, or more commonly it's an 8 hour day for 4 days a week with an assumption (proven in many studies) than people work harder with less downtime for that 8 hours so consequently get the same amount of work done as their 10-hour-4-days and 5-day-week counterparts.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  > A 4 day work week today means working 4 days a week for the same money as a person working 5 days a week Sure, but you'll have even less hope for a salary increase next year, since this is basically what it is. This was the theory behind France's move to the 35-hour workweek, too. They also expected companies to hire more people to compensate for less work being done. Didn't work out as expected.
  - ramraj07 3y ago
    What happened in France? The way I see it, as programmers we will be far more productive working fewer days per week and just taking more time to relax. If this assumption is accurate you have to do nothing to compensate.
    - vladvasiliu 3y ago
      Sure, I think there's a big difference between programmers (and similar) and the situation in France at the time, when most people affected by this were factory workers, who didn't have themselves much influence over how productive they were (aside from the obvious issues of not showing up / slacking off). Basically, "nothing" happened. The expected drop in unemployment never materialized. And although pay rises never were an expected effect of the change (from what I know), they were negatively impacted. I'm not knowledgeable enough in those matters, so I may be off base, but it would seem that companies started to be less "competitive" when the rule started to be applied, in 2000-2002. But from what I've read on the subject, none of the sides (for and against the measure) can prove that it was undoubtedly a good or a bad thing. > The way I see it, as programmers we will be far more productive working fewer days per week and just taking more time to relax. If this assumption is accurate you have to do nothing to compensate. I agree with this. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to make this kind of decision. And it's pretty clear to me that many managers don't think this way, and somehow figure that your productivity is roughly constant and proportional to the time your butt spends in your seat (at least up to a point).

bunderbunder 3y ago

I would sacrifice >20% of my pay for a 4-day work week.

hypeatei 3y ago
You shouldn't, though. Negotiate the same pay but 4-days a week instead of 5. As workers, we shouldn't lower our expectations or standards for employers. It hurts us all.

devjab 3y ago

I had a 4 day workweek for a period of time after I got diagnosed with ADHD in a ripe age. Eventually bumped it back up to 5 days because it paid me 1/5 more. My efficiency, however, is around the same, or even slightly lower, than it was when I was working 4 days. Which isn't low enough to cause me any issues, but it's also sort of silly that I get paid more for the same/less solely due to spending more hours in the office and not for the work I'm actually performing. This isn't because I'm quiet quitting or whatever trend there is hip with the anti-work crowd, it's simply because I'm more tired and I perform worse when I'm tired.

city41 3y ago
I did a 6 month stint with 4 day work days and I noticed the same thing. I think I was more productive when I had that added day of rest and yeah they paid me 1/5 less. I didn't mind the pay cut because I was much happier. It's pretty amazing what an extra day of rest does for you.

Euphorbium 3y ago

Should be fighting for a 3 day work week by now, not a 4.

epaulson 3y ago
During spring of 2020 at the very beginning of COVID my (100K+ person) company furloughed all of us for about 12 days, but most of us had to take it as 2 days of unpaid time off per week, so we effectively had 3 day work weeks. I have to say that felt a little too short and it always felt like it was a scramble to get things done. 4 day weeks feel a lot more comfortable.
gruez 3y ago
3 days? Why settle for so little? Ask for 2, he'll 1 day work week!

epups 3y ago

This is a huge trend in Europe. A sizable portion of people I know are simply deciding to work as little as possible, even if that means getting paid less. The general perception is that there is no point in saving for a house or for retirement, and many perceive the career ladder game to be a fool's errand. So they just want to get enough money to live at present.

LeanderK 3y ago

I've seen some strange criticisms after a friend of mine transitioned to a 4-day week. Like whether he has any ambitions, doesn't want to work etc. He is a very committed, good programmer really kinda keeping the company running. I bet he gets more stuff done in 4 days than others in 5. But he has a very active private, social life. He goes a lot on vacations, has hobbies or is just actively enjoying life. He's also in europe so quite a bit of vacation. Programmers usually have a comfortable salary, even with 80% you're still above average and have a lot of disposable income. Maybe a smaller apartment but who cares. He has such an enormous quality of life that I kinda suspect that all the ones got it wrong. In the end life is not about grinding for the man, it's just a means to an end. They should justify themselves, not him. It's also really stupid considering how committed he is, he just has a rich life besides work. I see others just working inefficiently, trying to dodge responsibility and being kinda lazy. But he get's criticised.

francisofascii 3y ago
Who criticizes him?
- LeanderK 3y ago
  Not colleagues, but people outside his work (it's an advanced startup, so everyone still knows everyone). For example older relatives or random people who found out he works 80%. Sometimes it's really a random condescending person.
myaccountonhn 3y ago
I work 4 days a week and never received this criticism.
- LeanderK 3y ago
  maybe it's cultural? I'm in germany for the context

miiiiiike 3y ago

I give myself a fixed number of "hands on keyboard" hours that I need to meet each week and track my time to the second. If I hit my number in four days, hey, three day weekend. If I don't hit it by Friday, I'm working Saturday. I love it. I want to keep doing this for as long as I can.

somsak2 3y ago
Mind me asking how many hours that is? Does it include meetings?
- miiiiiike 3y ago
  Four, as of this year. I don’t include meetings.

harryquach 3y ago

Old people will also!

nunez 3y ago

I hope the four day workweek is an actual four day workweek (I.e. 32 hr weeks) and not 10x4's. Those are worse.

goqu 3y ago

Here is one thing about 4 day week that opens eyes. If you are let's say 35 and hope to retire at 60, switching to a 4 day week could save you about 1,300 workdays—that's, roughly 3.5 years. The 5-minute window where my funny 4 day week calculator will shine: https://okjob.io/4-day-week-calculator/ https://okjob.io/4-day-week-calculator/

sonicanatidae 3y ago

Older people as well. :)

RexFactorem 3y ago

If ppl got the same quality of life our grandparents and maybe some parents got, I'm sure this wouldn't be a topic.