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Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

51 points by dsego 3y ago

Temporary_31337 3y ago
The video correctly explains that ABS isn’t about shortest braking distance but more about a predictable trajectory and ability to avoid obstacles where possible. It also takes a lot of guesswork from braking as you can simply instinctively slam the brakes and get good enough results. Especially on a motorcycle slamming the brakes in panic without abs ends up in a crash.
- chris_st 3y ago
  Two experiences of mine: Braking on snowy/icy streets. First, in a car without ABS, I put on the brakes (I was probably going a little too fast) to avoid hitting the car stopped ahead of me. I started to slow down, but also to slip to the right towards the curb; it was scary, and I barely slowed down in time to avoid either collision. Second, in a car with ABS, I slowed down to turn into a parking lot, and the ABS kicked in; the car went absolutely straight (without slowing down enough to make the turn), but I wasn't sliding at all, so I didn't have to worry about sliding into the curb. Big win.
  - jgalar 3y ago
    My worst close-calls were a result of ABS engaging at very low speed. In all cases, I reduced the speed to 2-3 MPH approaching a snowy intersection, but the car refused to let the wheels lock and "sink" in the snow. Instead, it's all too happy to drift into oncoming traffic at a glacial pace. It could be specific to the various Toyotas I have owned...
    - chris_st 3y ago
      Technology is defined as that thing which almost works correctly. Sorry to hear you had that experience! I've lived places where the "sink into the snow" was the right thing, but where I live now, there's very likely ice under the snow, so it's not clear if that would help.
PopAlongKid 3y ago
This is about motorcycles, not 4-wheel cars (except for a very brief contrast between the two).
j-a-a-p 3y ago
I did a anti-slip course where we learned dosed breaking to reduce break distance. And once a circuit racing course where the instructor just told me to break with all force available. The latter stuck. This instructor logic was, only if you are a pro driver you actually can outperform ABS. In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back collisions. Once I pushed so hard the break light sensor had to be replaced. In that case I saw a SUV struggling to stop in my rear view mirror. I had enough control to move to the right and have that SUV crash into the vehicle in front of me. In this line of thought, it can be life saving to be overweight. I was about 120 kg back then and therefor had quite strong legs.
- JohnBooty 3y ago
  I got really good at pumping the brakes (is that "dosed braking"? new term to me) in the days before ABS. You can definitely get close to the performance of ABS with practice. Used to practice in the snow, in empty parking lots. (ABS or no ABS, everybody should safely practice recovering from spins and slides in empty parking lots! It's also really fun...) The idea that a pro could outperform ABS is surprising to hear. I guess one area where a pro could outperform ABS is if you are trying to slow, not stop. All the ABS systems I've used seem to assume you're trying for a full stop. Anyway, I'm really glad we have ABS now.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - david_acm 3y ago
    I believe the term "pumping the brakes" refers to applying and releasing pressure on the brakes. With ABS off, a tire that's locked up (not spinning) will stop in a significantly longer distance than one that's at the limit of grip (slipping with a slight under-rotation). Assuming you have exceeded the limit of grip of the tires with the initial brake bite and the tires have started to lock up, by releasing and reapplying pressure you allow the tire to spin up again to regain grip and then apply more brake to help stop the car. I assume this was to kinda emulate what ABS is meant to do (albeit much slower?) but I never knew this was a thing until recently. You do not need to pump the brakes if you can threshold brake, though I understand the fact that the vast majority of drivers on the road cannot do this and ABS is a life-saving fallback. Also to add to your comment about everyone taking some time to practice. I would also 100% recommend a good racing simulator if you or a friend you know has one. Specifically a setup that has a load cell braking pedal. Most entry-level sim pedals are potentiometers which measure the distance your foot travels as opposed to a load cell which measures the force applied on the pedal. This is how my younger self learned to threshold brake (among other things) and I was surprised at how it all transferred to the real world when I finally hit the track later in life.
taeric 3y ago
Ok, this entire premise is silly. "Humans can do things that a computer can't" is fine and all, but the entire point is that most people are not practicing that style of braking and can't do it. Heck, the beginning is that most people aren't braking at all during a wreck. Thinking that "perfect braking" would be the answer feels very disingenuous. And if you aren't covering how much speed was lost at the end of the stopping period your analysis is kind of worthless. Yes, you can stop faster with clean road and good execution of old stopping technique. Ignoring that the analysis is that that just isn't happening, but focusing on the extra 20 feet you travel with ABS ignores just how much slower you are already going for that last 20 feet. Even assuming you'd still be in a wreck, if you can reduce the brain to the panic of "slam brakes" and get a massive reduction in speed, that is still almost certainly good, no?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
buildbot 3y ago
NB: this video is about motorcycles which have different dynamics than cars. I still think the point holds that in panic situation, it’s better to keep the reactions required simple as possible. Tangential query - is the difference between ABS and no ABS greater or lesser than bad tires and top of the line summers? Getting very expensive tires has quite a huge impact on stopping distance from what I’ve experienced. Having 255s up front also helps ;)
- briffle 3y ago
  Family Member is head of training for very large fire department. For testing their truck drivers, if they ABS kicks in at all, you fail the test. They want you to go all the way up to the limit, and ease off the breaks slightly as the 60,000lb truck gets close to kicking in its ABS.
  - argiopetech 3y ago
    This is called "threshold braking" (though it's often incorrectly called "pumping the brakes") and was/is standard practice for vehicles without ABS.
    - jabl 3y ago
      I learned that 'pumping' is what you do to counteract the brakes overheating when going down a mountain and engine braking isn't sufficient.
    - ehaliewicz2 3y ago
      Pumping the brakes is what you do if you cannot threshold brake. You lose traction, so let off the brakes to regain grip, then apply again and repeat, hence pumping.
  - justin66 3y ago
    Is ABS a feature on their training truck that doesn't exist on the real rigs, or something? I've read about police receiving the opposite instruction: a reminder during training that they should keep their foot on the brake when they feel the ABS coming on. Apparently too many police were crashing because they'd lift, and attempt threshold braking as they'd been trained back in the day, when they felt the ABS coming on. They were interpreting the feel of ABS as a loss in traction.
thnswede 3y ago
IIRC this is part of the driving test theoretical portion in Sweden, and then a mandatory "experience the ABS/non-ABS braking". Not much of a myth, there. Spoiler: without ABS, you'll just spin into the moose. With ABS you maybe wont stop, but the main thing is not being crushed by the moose. Not joking about the moose. They put up cones and say this is the moose. Without ABS everyone spins like a carnival ride, and hits the moose.
- doubled112 3y ago
  This is quite literally called "the moose test" is it not?
  - bdsa 3y ago
    The moose test is more of a slalom around an object, and tests (sort of) stability rather than braking
    - whartung 3y ago
      A testament to modern control systems in cars. When the 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee was released, it was an early release in mid-2013. And, yes, it was an early release. The first month or so of models had all sorts of problems. And one of them was that the stability control system was not dialed in. You can hunt down early video of the vehicle not doing well in the moose test. It does the swerve, but practically loses control. It’s rather horrific. Later, they updated the systems and it performs the same test much, much better. Most of these systems and what they do for day to day drivers is invisible. Watching the Jeep fail, and then later succeed, just shows how capable those systems really are.
- aidenn0 3y ago
  Considering the fact that I've seen deer total a car, I can't imagine what hitting a moose would do.
  - falcolas 3y ago
Swizec 3y ago
FortNine is great but the conclusion in this video is a little silly. The best result comes from threshold braking with ABS enabled. Yeah no shit. As described in the video, motorcycles perform funny under braking. If you slam the brakes too fast, you have very little grip. ABS kicks in and you’re not stopping. If you progressively brake correctly, you transfer load to the front tyre and increase grip. ABS kicks in, but you’re stopping effectively. Same is true in a car just way way less observable because you have more tyres, better grip, and your foot doesn’t slam the brakes as fast as your hand does. But you can play with this on gravel or on snow. Now here’s the really fun part. Most motorcycle riders most of the time never brake with more than like 60% of theoretical threshold. Here’s a tkacs talk explaining this problem: https://youtu.be/CpaFeZ4xS8g?si=xI_29sLDY82UZziV https://youtu.be/CpaFeZ4xS8g?si=xI_29sLDY82UZziV tldr: If you ride motorcycles, go out and practice. It may save your life. For example, I once almost painted my pants brown braking from 80mph to 60mph because a car spooked me and the ABS kicked in in the middle of the freeway. I was nowhere near actual threshold, but the car made my lizard brain kick in and squeeze the lever too fast.
- tomtheelder 3y ago
  I'm confused by which part of the conclusion you thought was silly. It seems like you reached the exact same conclusion than the video did, and I don't think it's at all obvious to most people that you are still supposed to threshold brake with ABS.
  - Swizec 3y ago
    The silly/unfortunate part is that most people can’t threshold brake in emergency situations. It’s like saying “Doing the perfect thing every time is best”. Which is true but not useful. And they teach you about progressive braking in the first hour of learning to ride. Then they keep repeating it all the time. Every rider on the road knows that they should do this. It’s the execution that is hard.
    - tomtheelder 3y ago
      Yeah and that’s exactly what the video says as well: that people can’t consistently threshold break in emergency situations, which is why ABS is so valuable.
nayuki 3y ago
Love the numerous British-style dry humor instances that he inserted, despite being Canadian
- dsego 3y ago
  This channel is a gold mine if you love that type of presentation style.
lbussell 3y ago
I ride motorcycles on the track, and most track riders/racers disable or delete ABS on their bikes. The idea of ABS sounds great, but it’s often too primitive for high performance riding. On a hot summer day with sticky tires and a clean track, you’ll flip over the handlebars before you lock the front wheel. However, most ABS systems work by detecting the speed difference between the front and rear wheels. As you brake hard into a corner, the weight transfers forwards and the rear wheel can come completely off the ground. I’m braking as hard as possible but at this point the ABS sees the rear wheel spinning freely in the air and decides I don’t have brakes anymore. Check out this clip from WSBK for an extreme example of what I’m talking about: https://youtu.be/48lcS3hPVrE?si=UORAFvQt4Djf95Uv https://youtu.be/48lcS3hPVrE?si=UORAFvQt4Djf95Uv I don’t claim to be able to out brake ABS on the varied conditions of the street though. I would NEVER turn off ABS outside a controlled environment. Honestly it should be a legal requirement for bikes just like cars and it’s pretty silly that manufacturers like to charge $500-1000 extra for this feature.
- kuroguro 3y ago
  Pretty sure it is a legal requirement in a lot of places (EU, Australia, NZ, Brazil, India). The only other place I'd turn off ABS is driving offroad, tho I hear that has improved a lot over the years as well.
mindslight 3y ago
Is the default behavior in motorcycle land really to just use the back brakes? When I rode a bicycle in a city I learned to use both, but primarily my fronts. I definitely had some panic stops where I was modulating to prevent the rear wheel coming off the ground. But maybe the calculus changes with motorcycles' higher speed, as maintaining steerability becomes that much more important? I'm actually kind of surprised a motorcycle ABS controller apparently doesn't include include sensors for the deceleration vector, bike rotation, the compression of the front shock, the weight on the rear wheel, etc. I'd think that a computer could reliably beat a human, given the right sensors.
- ehaliewicz2 3y ago
  It's possible that really high end bikes (either sportbikes, or fancy tourers like goldwings) do, but ABS isn't really about maximum braking performance. It is about maintaining maneuverability during emergency braking (given that tires have a limited amount of grip, this is opposed to achieving the minimum possible braking distance). >But maybe the calculus changes with motorcycles' higher speed, as maintaining steerability becomes that much more important? It's just a panic response. Everybody on a motorcycle (hopefully) knows that you should be using front brake to slow down as quickly as possible, unless you need to swerve of course :)
- dharmab 3y ago
  > Is the default behavior in motorcycle land really to just use the back brakes? there are a lot of old fogeys who think if you touch the front brake you'll flip over the bars. the MSF class specifically teaches that the front is 80% of your braking and to use both brakes, but a lot of motorcyclists never get a permit/license and learn from a family member or something, so myths persist
nh23423fefe 3y ago
I'm surprised he said, "people only brake with the rear" My first day out with my bike, i was staring at my foot trying to figure out why i was in the wrong gear. I looked up and was heading for the median. grabbed fistful of front brake to massive stoppie. I got luck and didn't lay the bike now. but front brake was drilled into me by the safety course i took. i didn't even think
taylodl 3y ago
FortNine on HN! I love it when two different aspects of my life collide! For the HNers who don't know much about motorcycles, in the motorcycling world there's a big argument whether ABS is a net good or not. The old-timers tend to say "learn to ride your bike, you can beat ABS." Manufacturers site statistics saying ABS saves lives. This video is good in that it shows old-timer braking + ABS gives the best of both worlds. Somewhat paradoxically, in the world of motorcycles, even with ABS, just slamming on the brakes isn't the best strategy for emergency stopping. You'll stop faster with two-phase braking. That's why it's critical motorcycle riders practice emergency braking. You have to practice it enough to make it muscle memory.
- aidenn0 3y ago
  > ...just slamming on the brakes isn't the best strategy for emergency stopping It seems like there is no technical reason why phased braking couldn't be added to a more advanced ABS system. Early car ABS systems were also much worse for stopping distance than threshold braking, but more advanced systems have made up much of the difference.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > The old-timers tend to say "learn to ride your bike, you can beat ABS." Manufacturers site statistics saying ABS saves lives. It seems to me that both of these things can be true at the same time.
- whartung 3y ago
  > That's why it's critical motorcycle riders practice emergency braking. You have to practice it enough to make it muscle memory. Indeed threshold braking (which is what this is) is a very important skill to practice for a motorcycle rider. However, that said, while folks can practice the maneuver, what is very difficult to practice is the situation. It’s one thing to practice on a dry parking lot in front of a cone or tennis ball. It’s quite another to practice on the street in a crummy intersection with an F-150 turning left in front of you. It’s always important to have data like this, talking about limits of systems, our role and impact as riders with such systems. This is a good video (all of Ryan’s stuff is excellent). But I have seen others actually advocate switching ABS off, and I think that’s a bit irresponsible. Off road is a different problem, and a complicated environment for an ABS system. The track is another controlled space where folks can test limitations. Many bikes offer the ability to disable ABS systems (as a first class concept) just for these reasons. But neither of those are the street. There are a lot of situations where straight line stopping is not necessarily the correct response. ABS is a boon in more cases than it’s not when it comes to emergency maneuvers. The street is complex and unforgiving. Anyone who’s been in the community for any length of time knows about very skilled, even professional, riders that the street has taken from their families. I love motorcycles and riding. I have for a very long time. And my simple rule is I don’t recommend it to anyone. It’s very dangerous. As riders, these systems are excellent, and get better every year. Practice threshold breaking, by all means. Practice everything. But on the street, you need every edge. Leave your ABS on.
rasz 3y ago
@2:10 "not even the soap operas from F1 could outbrake the ABS system, but on a motorcycle ..." So this video starts with a lie to justify its clickbait title.
mrnaught 3y ago
Sometime back watched a video explaining how Fernando Alonso's breaking style is similar to ABS, but with him modulating the brake force he was able to outbrake others and gain time lap over lap. Got curious, tried at low speeds & surprised how much the brake force modulation reduces the stoping distance. It has become a habit now and when the speed drops like maybe to 40mph or less instinctively modulate the braking.

51 points by dsego 3y ago

The video correctly explains that ABS isn’t about shortest braking distance but more about a predictable trajectory and ability to avoid obstacles where possible. It also takes a lot of guesswork from braking as you can simply instinctively slam the brakes and get good enough results. Especially on a motorcycle slamming the brakes in panic without abs ends up in a crash.

chris_st 3y ago
Two experiences of mine: Braking on snowy/icy streets. First, in a car without ABS, I put on the brakes (I was probably going a little too fast) to avoid hitting the car stopped ahead of me. I started to slow down, but also to slip to the right towards the curb; it was scary, and I barely slowed down in time to avoid either collision. Second, in a car with ABS, I slowed down to turn into a parking lot, and the ABS kicked in; the car went absolutely straight (without slowing down enough to make the turn), but I wasn't sliding at all, so I didn't have to worry about sliding into the curb. Big win.
- jgalar 3y ago
  My worst close-calls were a result of ABS engaging at very low speed. In all cases, I reduced the speed to 2-3 MPH approaching a snowy intersection, but the car refused to let the wheels lock and "sink" in the snow. Instead, it's all too happy to drift into oncoming traffic at a glacial pace. It could be specific to the various Toyotas I have owned...
  - chris_st 3y ago
    Technology is defined as that thing which almost works correctly. Sorry to hear you had that experience! I've lived places where the "sink into the snow" was the right thing, but where I live now, there's very likely ice under the snow, so it's not clear if that would help.

PopAlongKid 3y ago

This is about motorcycles, not 4-wheel cars (except for a very brief contrast between the two).

j-a-a-p 3y ago

I did a anti-slip course where we learned dosed breaking to reduce break distance. And once a circuit racing course where the instructor just told me to break with all force available. The latter stuck. This instructor logic was, only if you are a pro driver you actually can outperform ABS. In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back collisions. Once I pushed so hard the break light sensor had to be replaced. In that case I saw a SUV struggling to stop in my rear view mirror. I had enough control to move to the right and have that SUV crash into the vehicle in front of me. In this line of thought, it can be life saving to be overweight. I was about 120 kg back then and therefor had quite strong legs.

JohnBooty 3y ago
I got really good at pumping the brakes (is that "dosed braking"? new term to me) in the days before ABS. You can definitely get close to the performance of ABS with practice. Used to practice in the snow, in empty parking lots. (ABS or no ABS, everybody should safely practice recovering from spins and slides in empty parking lots! It's also really fun...) The idea that a pro could outperform ABS is surprising to hear. I guess one area where a pro could outperform ABS is if you are trying to slow, not stop. All the ABS systems I've used seem to assume you're trying for a full stop. Anyway, I'm really glad we have ABS now.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- david_acm 3y ago
  I believe the term "pumping the brakes" refers to applying and releasing pressure on the brakes. With ABS off, a tire that's locked up (not spinning) will stop in a significantly longer distance than one that's at the limit of grip (slipping with a slight under-rotation). Assuming you have exceeded the limit of grip of the tires with the initial brake bite and the tires have started to lock up, by releasing and reapplying pressure you allow the tire to spin up again to regain grip and then apply more brake to help stop the car. I assume this was to kinda emulate what ABS is meant to do (albeit much slower?) but I never knew this was a thing until recently. You do not need to pump the brakes if you can threshold brake, though I understand the fact that the vast majority of drivers on the road cannot do this and ABS is a life-saving fallback. Also to add to your comment about everyone taking some time to practice. I would also 100% recommend a good racing simulator if you or a friend you know has one. Specifically a setup that has a load cell braking pedal. Most entry-level sim pedals are potentiometers which measure the distance your foot travels as opposed to a load cell which measures the force applied on the pedal. This is how my younger self learned to threshold brake (among other things) and I was surprised at how it all transferred to the real world when I finally hit the track later in life.

taeric 3y ago

Ok, this entire premise is silly. "Humans can do things that a computer can't" is fine and all, but the entire point is that most people are not practicing that style of braking and can't do it. Heck, the beginning is that most people aren't braking at all during a wreck. Thinking that "perfect braking" would be the answer feels very disingenuous. And if you aren't covering how much speed was lost at the end of the stopping period your analysis is kind of worthless. Yes, you can stop faster with clean road and good execution of old stopping technique. Ignoring that the analysis is that that just isn't happening, but focusing on the extra 20 feet you travel with ABS ignores just how much slower you are already going for that last 20 feet. Even assuming you'd still be in a wreck, if you can reduce the brain to the panic of "slam brakes" and get a massive reduction in speed, that is still almost certainly good, no?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

buildbot 3y ago

NB: this video is about motorcycles which have different dynamics than cars. I still think the point holds that in panic situation, it’s better to keep the reactions required simple as possible. Tangential query - is the difference between ABS and no ABS greater or lesser than bad tires and top of the line summers? Getting very expensive tires has quite a huge impact on stopping distance from what I’ve experienced. Having 255s up front also helps ;)

briffle 3y ago
Family Member is head of training for very large fire department. For testing their truck drivers, if they ABS kicks in at all, you fail the test. They want you to go all the way up to the limit, and ease off the breaks slightly as the 60,000lb truck gets close to kicking in its ABS.
- argiopetech 3y ago
  This is called "threshold braking" (though it's often incorrectly called "pumping the brakes") and was/is standard practice for vehicles without ABS.
  - jabl 3y ago
    I learned that 'pumping' is what you do to counteract the brakes overheating when going down a mountain and engine braking isn't sufficient.
  - ehaliewicz2 3y ago
    Pumping the brakes is what you do if you cannot threshold brake. You lose traction, so let off the brakes to regain grip, then apply again and repeat, hence pumping.
- justin66 3y ago
  Is ABS a feature on their training truck that doesn't exist on the real rigs, or something? I've read about police receiving the opposite instruction: a reminder during training that they should keep their foot on the brake when they feel the ABS coming on. Apparently too many police were crashing because they'd lift, and attempt threshold braking as they'd been trained back in the day, when they felt the ABS coming on. They were interpreting the feel of ABS as a loss in traction.

thnswede 3y ago

IIRC this is part of the driving test theoretical portion in Sweden, and then a mandatory "experience the ABS/non-ABS braking". Not much of a myth, there. Spoiler: without ABS, you'll just spin into the moose. With ABS you maybe wont stop, but the main thing is not being crushed by the moose. Not joking about the moose. They put up cones and say this is the moose. Without ABS everyone spins like a carnival ride, and hits the moose.

doubled112 3y ago
This is quite literally called "the moose test" is it not?
- bdsa 3y ago
  The moose test is more of a slalom around an object, and tests (sort of) stability rather than braking
  - whartung 3y ago
    A testament to modern control systems in cars. When the 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee was released, it was an early release in mid-2013. And, yes, it was an early release. The first month or so of models had all sorts of problems. And one of them was that the stability control system was not dialed in. You can hunt down early video of the vehicle not doing well in the moose test. It does the swerve, but practically loses control. It’s rather horrific. Later, they updated the systems and it performs the same test much, much better. Most of these systems and what they do for day to day drivers is invisible. Watching the Jeep fail, and then later succeed, just shows how capable those systems really are.
aidenn0 3y ago
Considering the fact that I've seen deer total a car, I can't imagine what hitting a moose would do.
- falcolas 3y ago

Swizec 3y ago

FortNine is great but the conclusion in this video is a little silly. The best result comes from threshold braking with ABS enabled. Yeah no shit. As described in the video, motorcycles perform funny under braking. If you slam the brakes too fast, you have very little grip. ABS kicks in and you’re not stopping. If you progressively brake correctly, you transfer load to the front tyre and increase grip. ABS kicks in, but you’re stopping effectively. Same is true in a car just way way less observable because you have more tyres, better grip, and your foot doesn’t slam the brakes as fast as your hand does. But you can play with this on gravel or on snow. Now here’s the really fun part. Most motorcycle riders most of the time never brake with more than like 60% of theoretical threshold. Here’s a tkacs talk explaining this problem: https://youtu.be/CpaFeZ4xS8g?si=xI_29sLDY82UZziV https://youtu.be/CpaFeZ4xS8g?si=xI_29sLDY82UZziV tldr: If you ride motorcycles, go out and practice. It may save your life. For example, I once almost painted my pants brown braking from 80mph to 60mph because a car spooked me and the ABS kicked in in the middle of the freeway. I was nowhere near actual threshold, but the car made my lizard brain kick in and squeeze the lever too fast.

tomtheelder 3y ago
I'm confused by which part of the conclusion you thought was silly. It seems like you reached the exact same conclusion than the video did, and I don't think it's at all obvious to most people that you are still supposed to threshold brake with ABS.
- Swizec 3y ago
  The silly/unfortunate part is that most people can’t threshold brake in emergency situations. It’s like saying “Doing the perfect thing every time is best”. Which is true but not useful. And they teach you about progressive braking in the first hour of learning to ride. Then they keep repeating it all the time. Every rider on the road knows that they should do this. It’s the execution that is hard.
  - tomtheelder 3y ago
    Yeah and that’s exactly what the video says as well: that people can’t consistently threshold break in emergency situations, which is why ABS is so valuable.

nayuki 3y ago

Love the numerous British-style dry humor instances that he inserted, despite being Canadian

dsego 3y ago
This channel is a gold mine if you love that type of presentation style.

lbussell 3y ago

I ride motorcycles on the track, and most track riders/racers disable or delete ABS on their bikes. The idea of ABS sounds great, but it’s often too primitive for high performance riding. On a hot summer day with sticky tires and a clean track, you’ll flip over the handlebars before you lock the front wheel. However, most ABS systems work by detecting the speed difference between the front and rear wheels. As you brake hard into a corner, the weight transfers forwards and the rear wheel can come completely off the ground. I’m braking as hard as possible but at this point the ABS sees the rear wheel spinning freely in the air and decides I don’t have brakes anymore. Check out this clip from WSBK for an extreme example of what I’m talking about: https://youtu.be/48lcS3hPVrE?si=UORAFvQt4Djf95Uv https://youtu.be/48lcS3hPVrE?si=UORAFvQt4Djf95Uv I don’t claim to be able to out brake ABS on the varied conditions of the street though. I would NEVER turn off ABS outside a controlled environment. Honestly it should be a legal requirement for bikes just like cars and it’s pretty silly that manufacturers like to charge $500-1000 extra for this feature.

kuroguro 3y ago
Pretty sure it is a legal requirement in a lot of places (EU, Australia, NZ, Brazil, India). The only other place I'd turn off ABS is driving offroad, tho I hear that has improved a lot over the years as well.

mindslight 3y ago

Is the default behavior in motorcycle land really to just use the back brakes? When I rode a bicycle in a city I learned to use both, but primarily my fronts. I definitely had some panic stops where I was modulating to prevent the rear wheel coming off the ground. But maybe the calculus changes with motorcycles' higher speed, as maintaining steerability becomes that much more important? I'm actually kind of surprised a motorcycle ABS controller apparently doesn't include include sensors for the deceleration vector, bike rotation, the compression of the front shock, the weight on the rear wheel, etc. I'd think that a computer could reliably beat a human, given the right sensors.

ehaliewicz2 3y ago
It's possible that really high end bikes (either sportbikes, or fancy tourers like goldwings) do, but ABS isn't really about maximum braking performance. It is about maintaining maneuverability during emergency braking (given that tires have a limited amount of grip, this is opposed to achieving the minimum possible braking distance). >But maybe the calculus changes with motorcycles' higher speed, as maintaining steerability becomes that much more important? It's just a panic response. Everybody on a motorcycle (hopefully) knows that you should be using front brake to slow down as quickly as possible, unless you need to swerve of course :)
dharmab 3y ago
> Is the default behavior in motorcycle land really to just use the back brakes? there are a lot of old fogeys who think if you touch the front brake you'll flip over the bars. the MSF class specifically teaches that the front is 80% of your braking and to use both brakes, but a lot of motorcyclists never get a permit/license and learn from a family member or something, so myths persist

nh23423fefe 3y ago

I'm surprised he said, "people only brake with the rear" My first day out with my bike, i was staring at my foot trying to figure out why i was in the wrong gear. I looked up and was heading for the median. grabbed fistful of front brake to massive stoppie. I got luck and didn't lay the bike now. but front brake was drilled into me by the safety course i took. i didn't even think

taylodl 3y ago

FortNine on HN! I love it when two different aspects of my life collide! For the HNers who don't know much about motorcycles, in the motorcycling world there's a big argument whether ABS is a net good or not. The old-timers tend to say "learn to ride your bike, you can beat ABS." Manufacturers site statistics saying ABS saves lives. This video is good in that it shows old-timer braking + ABS gives the best of both worlds. Somewhat paradoxically, in the world of motorcycles, even with ABS, just slamming on the brakes isn't the best strategy for emergency stopping. You'll stop faster with two-phase braking. That's why it's critical motorcycle riders practice emergency braking. You have to practice it enough to make it muscle memory.

aidenn0 3y ago
> ...just slamming on the brakes isn't the best strategy for emergency stopping It seems like there is no technical reason why phased braking couldn't be added to a more advanced ABS system. Early car ABS systems were also much worse for stopping distance than threshold braking, but more advanced systems have made up much of the difference.
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JohnFen 3y ago
> The old-timers tend to say "learn to ride your bike, you can beat ABS." Manufacturers site statistics saying ABS saves lives. It seems to me that both of these things can be true at the same time.
whartung 3y ago
> That's why it's critical motorcycle riders practice emergency braking. You have to practice it enough to make it muscle memory. Indeed threshold braking (which is what this is) is a very important skill to practice for a motorcycle rider. However, that said, while folks can practice the maneuver, what is very difficult to practice is the situation. It’s one thing to practice on a dry parking lot in front of a cone or tennis ball. It’s quite another to practice on the street in a crummy intersection with an F-150 turning left in front of you. It’s always important to have data like this, talking about limits of systems, our role and impact as riders with such systems. This is a good video (all of Ryan’s stuff is excellent). But I have seen others actually advocate switching ABS off, and I think that’s a bit irresponsible. Off road is a different problem, and a complicated environment for an ABS system. The track is another controlled space where folks can test limitations. Many bikes offer the ability to disable ABS systems (as a first class concept) just for these reasons. But neither of those are the street. There are a lot of situations where straight line stopping is not necessarily the correct response. ABS is a boon in more cases than it’s not when it comes to emergency maneuvers. The street is complex and unforgiving. Anyone who’s been in the community for any length of time knows about very skilled, even professional, riders that the street has taken from their families. I love motorcycles and riding. I have for a very long time. And my simple rule is I don’t recommend it to anyone. It’s very dangerous. As riders, these systems are excellent, and get better every year. Practice threshold breaking, by all means. Practice everything. But on the street, you need every edge. Leave your ABS on.

rasz 3y ago

@2:10 "not even the soap operas from F1 could outbrake the ABS system, but on a motorcycle ..." So this video starts with a lie to justify its clickbait title.

mrnaught 3y ago

Sometime back watched a video explaining how Fernando Alonso's breaking style is similar to ABS, but with him modulating the brake force he was able to outbrake others and gain time lap over lap. Got curious, tried at low speeds & surprised how much the brake force modulation reduces the stoping distance. It has become a habit now and when the speed drops like maybe to 40mph or less instinctively modulate the braking.