6 ms·

Consider using GrapheneOS instead of stock Android for an improved version of MTE (and extra security and privacy as a bonus): https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/

by akyuu 3y ago

Consider using GrapheneOS instead of stock Android for an improved version of MTE (and extra security and privacy as a bonus): https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/8439-mte-support-status-for-grapheneos/34 https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/8439-mte-support-status-for... > Stock Pixel OS has it as a developer option which isn't usable in practice since it breaks far too much. The implementation is also much less powerful than hardened_malloc. > We integrated it into hardened_malloc where it's able to provide stronger security properties than the experimental stock OS implementation. > When fully integrated into the compiler and each heap allocator, MTE enforces a form of memory safety. It detects memory corruption as it happens. 4 bit tags limit it to probabilistic detection for the general case, but deterministic guarantees are possible via reserving tags. In hardened_malloc, we deterministically prevent sequential overflows by excluding adjacent tags. Also, currently it's not clear if it makes sense to enable kernel MTE: > MTE support for protecting the Linux kernel isn't enabled yet, but we can likely enable that by default too. However, it's currently part of kasan and is more oriented towards debugging than hardening. It's not entirely clear that enabling it in the current state is a good idea.

matheusmoreira 3y ago
GrapheneOS is the number one reason to get a Pixel. They do a lot of good work. Strcat's posts are very informative: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=strcat https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=strcat
mikae1 3y ago
Writing this from a Pixel running GrapheneOS. I've been away from Graphene (using Lineage) since the CopperheadOS days. Coming back I can safely say I will be buying Pixels as long as GrapheneOS is around. The robustness a finish is just amazing. To anyone using a Pixel: install and donate (if you can)! The web installer[1] is basically a few clicks on a web page. So damned impressed. [1] https://grapheneos.org/install/web https://grapheneos.org/install/web
- galangalalgol 3y ago
  Do you lose the whole play store? Does it even make sense if I use gmail? I like the idea at least. And my 4a isn't getting updates now(on graphene either apparently) which is a shame because I still like it. I used to ise lineage on Samsung devices.
  - piaste 3y ago
    One of GrapheneOS's absolute best features is the sandboxed Google Play Services. Basically, where other privacy AOSP forks typically offer up to three choices... - no Google at all - root and install an extremely fragile FOSS alternative GPS implementation (MicroG) - root and install the full Google Play Services binary blobs ... GrapheneOS offers option #4: you can install Google Play Services in a sandbox so that they still run, but they don't get root-level access to your system, instead they are treated the same as any other app (so e.g. you get to manage their access to location/storage/contacts etc.). Note that you don't have to, it's just an option in the built-in Apps menu. I personally run GrapheneOS with no GPS at all in my main profile, and occasionally access my old Gmail/Gdrive accounts via web browser.
    - jetbalsa 3y ago
      One of the things that Graphene doesn't support is Android Auto -- They have stated they will never support it due to the sheer rootkit levels that Android Auto does to the OS. Its a shame they have not found a good work around for it yet.
    - ode 3y ago
      Does Google Wallet / NFC payments work?
  - sliken 3y ago
    Play store is available, just not installed by default. It also lives in a sandbox so has to ask for permission more than it does under standard android. I never realized how many permissions the play store had, until I ran it under graphene.
tcbawo 3y ago
Coming from an absolute outsider (recent ambivalent iPhone switch, previously Android), how can I know that GrapheneOS is secure and the provenance of my build is legitimate, so that I can trust it with my banking, email, photos, identity, etc.?
- akyuu 3y ago
  Builds are reproducible [1], so you can compile them yourself and check they match the official ones. Additionally, official releases are signed and the update client verifies them and prevents downgrade attacks [2]. You can also install updates offline from a computer if you prefer [3]. [1] https://grapheneos.org/build#reproducible-builds https://grapheneos.org/build#reproducible-builds [2] https://grapheneos.org/releases#about-the-releases https://grapheneos.org/releases#about-the-releases [3] https://grapheneos.org/usage#updates-sideloading https://grapheneos.org/usage#updates-sideloading
- bubblethink 3y ago
  Provenance -> They have a bunch of tooling including attestation that you can use to verify your OS. GrapheneOS also operates like the stock OS with a locked bootloader, just signed with their keys, and the integrity of the boot chain up to and including the OS is what the attenstation app can verify after an initial pairing. Secure -> It's code. There are no absolute guarantees. They have security enhancements on top of AOSP. So that's a rough proxy for what you should expect.
  - vonthecreat0r 3y ago
    What about the propietary blobs? I saw @jchw stating some good point but seems most in this thread here got their head in the sand. too much trust in a product/service that may be secure on the surface, never means it's actually secure; I ended up installing lineageOS rooted and firewalling everything and uninstalling useless services...that's better than having a system that is being advertised as state of the art security. How dl you think google feels if their main OS market is being taken by a "secure" alternative like Graphene OS, unless they both struck a deal or are working together behind closed doors? I got a suspicion that there's something the lead Dev of Graphene Os is unrevealing to us...hence they put him on desk job like a rookie cop who came across some sh*t that the public shouldn't know... Meanwhile noone can fully confirm what's inside the OEM signed blobs that are on Graphene OS and other components. What more the heavy suggestion for never rooting; when over 200k apps on the playstore are riddled with malware/spyware? Why would a billion dollar coorp let such clumsy mistake happen? I am starting to trust the fdroid store over Googleplay (despite being unable to have access to other apps) due to the fact: Fdroid it's community baded/ the ppl make the app out of purely enjoyment versus montary need. I have pxl4xl and ended up uninstalling Graphene OS something feels off about it. No company CEO/Lead Dev just have a public dispute digitally and never explain why and the very next moment they are claimed to have had a mental breakdown. and the fact that people are asking sincere questions and are being ridiculed for it, even raises more red-flags... Think about it; it's 2023, people gotta start thinking for themselves, nothing seems as it awlays is based on surface exposure. I started only using software/tools by individuals or teams where the morale or principles is non-political and is in alignment with what makes sense no matter where you apply it.
jchw 3y ago
[flagged]
- piaste 3y ago
  > What I'd hope to hear is that Daniel Micay is in better mental health, but they made the almost-certainly wise choice to stop engaging with social media, and I can't find much information about what actually went down, so I guess it's a question mark. I mean, it sounds like you have pretty much all the relevant information already? strcat's technical chops were AFAIK never in question, but he had a tendency to pick up loud internet fights - to be fair, sometimes the other party were also being hostile jerks, but sometimes they weren't and he'd just swing at shadows. After he pissed off Rossmann, he either realized or someone close to him made him realize (doesn't really matter which) that he should step away from the public square, and he did. Now he's just an ordinary, and I presume highly valued, contributor to GrapheneOS and to upstream AOSP. Whether he still lurks the GrapheneOS discussion threads or not, or whether he is currently undergoing therapy or just chilling with a good book isn't really anyone else's business. What else do you need to know?
  - jchw 3y ago
    I was curious if that actually happened or not. However, I didn't actually see anything about GrapheneOS's leadership structure, or any kind of blog or anything where news like this would be announced. So if it happened, who replaced them? Are they trustworthy? At least in my cursory searching, I didn't figure out an answer to that. I assume the answer is actually out there, but I don't have it. > Whether he still lurks the GrapheneOS discussion threads or not, or whether he is currently undergoing therapy or just chilling with a good book isn't really anyone else's business. Sure, whatever. But failing any information about whether or not anything happened, I assume they still have root access to critical infrastructure. If so... I mean, naturally, the problem of trust hasn't changed much. If that's the case, then you still need to trust them to trust GrapheneOS. Can you? Don't know.
    - CuriousCosmic 3y ago
      > So if it happened, who replaced them? Are they trustworthy? At least in my cursory searching, I didn't figure out an answer to that. https://github.com/thestinger/daniel.micay.dev/commit/79e44b41190cd5c64c4ccd9fec4301ee6008da53 https://github.com/thestinger/daniel.micay.dev/commit/79e44b... They just stepped down as the official head and stopped making public comments. They still are a major developer for the project and still seem to own/run parts of the project.

by akyuu 3y ago

matheusmoreira 3y ago

GrapheneOS is the number one reason to get a Pixel. They do a lot of good work. Strcat's posts are very informative: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=strcat https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=strcat

mikae1 3y ago

Writing this from a Pixel running GrapheneOS. I've been away from Graphene (using Lineage) since the CopperheadOS days. Coming back I can safely say I will be buying Pixels as long as GrapheneOS is around. The robustness a finish is just amazing. To anyone using a Pixel: install and donate (if you can)! The web installer[1] is basically a few clicks on a web page. So damned impressed. [1] https://grapheneos.org/install/web https://grapheneos.org/install/web

galangalalgol 3y ago
Do you lose the whole play store? Does it even make sense if I use gmail? I like the idea at least. And my 4a isn't getting updates now(on graphene either apparently) which is a shame because I still like it. I used to ise lineage on Samsung devices.
- piaste 3y ago
  One of GrapheneOS's absolute best features is the sandboxed Google Play Services. Basically, where other privacy AOSP forks typically offer up to three choices... - no Google at all - root and install an extremely fragile FOSS alternative GPS implementation (MicroG) - root and install the full Google Play Services binary blobs ... GrapheneOS offers option #4: you can install Google Play Services in a sandbox so that they still run, but they don't get root-level access to your system, instead they are treated the same as any other app (so e.g. you get to manage their access to location/storage/contacts etc.). Note that you don't have to, it's just an option in the built-in Apps menu. I personally run GrapheneOS with no GPS at all in my main profile, and occasionally access my old Gmail/Gdrive accounts via web browser.
  - jetbalsa 3y ago
    One of the things that Graphene doesn't support is Android Auto -- They have stated they will never support it due to the sheer rootkit levels that Android Auto does to the OS. Its a shame they have not found a good work around for it yet.
  - ode 3y ago
    Does Google Wallet / NFC payments work?
- sliken 3y ago
  Play store is available, just not installed by default. It also lives in a sandbox so has to ask for permission more than it does under standard android. I never realized how many permissions the play store had, until I ran it under graphene.

tcbawo 3y ago

Coming from an absolute outsider (recent ambivalent iPhone switch, previously Android), how can I know that GrapheneOS is secure and the provenance of my build is legitimate, so that I can trust it with my banking, email, photos, identity, etc.?

akyuu 3y ago
Builds are reproducible [1], so you can compile them yourself and check they match the official ones. Additionally, official releases are signed and the update client verifies them and prevents downgrade attacks [2]. You can also install updates offline from a computer if you prefer [3]. [1] https://grapheneos.org/build#reproducible-builds https://grapheneos.org/build#reproducible-builds [2] https://grapheneos.org/releases#about-the-releases https://grapheneos.org/releases#about-the-releases [3] https://grapheneos.org/usage#updates-sideloading https://grapheneos.org/usage#updates-sideloading
bubblethink 3y ago
Provenance -> They have a bunch of tooling including attestation that you can use to verify your OS. GrapheneOS also operates like the stock OS with a locked bootloader, just signed with their keys, and the integrity of the boot chain up to and including the OS is what the attenstation app can verify after an initial pairing. Secure -> It's code. There are no absolute guarantees. They have security enhancements on top of AOSP. So that's a rough proxy for what you should expect.
- vonthecreat0r 3y ago
  What about the propietary blobs? I saw @jchw stating some good point but seems most in this thread here got their head in the sand. too much trust in a product/service that may be secure on the surface, never means it's actually secure; I ended up installing lineageOS rooted and firewalling everything and uninstalling useless services...that's better than having a system that is being advertised as state of the art security. How dl you think google feels if their main OS market is being taken by a "secure" alternative like Graphene OS, unless they both struck a deal or are working together behind closed doors? I got a suspicion that there's something the lead Dev of Graphene Os is unrevealing to us...hence they put him on desk job like a rookie cop who came across some sh*t that the public shouldn't know... Meanwhile noone can fully confirm what's inside the OEM signed blobs that are on Graphene OS and other components. What more the heavy suggestion for never rooting; when over 200k apps on the playstore are riddled with malware/spyware? Why would a billion dollar coorp let such clumsy mistake happen? I am starting to trust the fdroid store over Googleplay (despite being unable to have access to other apps) due to the fact: Fdroid it's community baded/ the ppl make the app out of purely enjoyment versus montary need. I have pxl4xl and ended up uninstalling Graphene OS something feels off about it. No company CEO/Lead Dev just have a public dispute digitally and never explain why and the very next moment they are claimed to have had a mental breakdown. and the fact that people are asking sincere questions and are being ridiculed for it, even raises more red-flags... Think about it; it's 2023, people gotta start thinking for themselves, nothing seems as it awlays is based on surface exposure. I started only using software/tools by individuals or teams where the morale or principles is non-political and is in alignment with what makes sense no matter where you apply it.

jchw 3y ago

[flagged]

piaste 3y ago
> What I'd hope to hear is that Daniel Micay is in better mental health, but they made the almost-certainly wise choice to stop engaging with social media, and I can't find much information about what actually went down, so I guess it's a question mark. I mean, it sounds like you have pretty much all the relevant information already? strcat's technical chops were AFAIK never in question, but he had a tendency to pick up loud internet fights - to be fair, sometimes the other party were also being hostile jerks, but sometimes they weren't and he'd just swing at shadows. After he pissed off Rossmann, he either realized or someone close to him made him realize (doesn't really matter which) that he should step away from the public square, and he did. Now he's just an ordinary, and I presume highly valued, contributor to GrapheneOS and to upstream AOSP. Whether he still lurks the GrapheneOS discussion threads or not, or whether he is currently undergoing therapy or just chilling with a good book isn't really anyone else's business. What else do you need to know?
- jchw 3y ago
  I was curious if that actually happened or not. However, I didn't actually see anything about GrapheneOS's leadership structure, or any kind of blog or anything where news like this would be announced. So if it happened, who replaced them? Are they trustworthy? At least in my cursory searching, I didn't figure out an answer to that. I assume the answer is actually out there, but I don't have it. > Whether he still lurks the GrapheneOS discussion threads or not, or whether he is currently undergoing therapy or just chilling with a good book isn't really anyone else's business. Sure, whatever. But failing any information about whether or not anything happened, I assume they still have root access to critical infrastructure. If so... I mean, naturally, the problem of trust hasn't changed much. If that's the case, then you still need to trust them to trust GrapheneOS. Can you? Don't know.
  - CuriousCosmic 3y ago
    > So if it happened, who replaced them? Are they trustworthy? At least in my cursory searching, I didn't figure out an answer to that. https://github.com/thestinger/daniel.micay.dev/commit/79e44b41190cd5c64c4ccd9fec4301ee6008da53 https://github.com/thestinger/daniel.micay.dev/commit/79e44b... They just stepped down as the official head and stopped making public comments. They still are a major developer for the project and still seem to own/run parts of the project.