5 ms·

I don't know, it sounds like "I don't have home internet" is more of a stand-in for "I don't have self control." If you want to read a book, just get off the c

I don't know, it sounds like "I don't have home internet" is more of a stand-in for "I don't have self control." If you want to read a book, just get off the computer and read a book.

aiscott 15y ago
I completely agree and I find it mystifying that you would be downvoted for that comment.
- jodrellblank 15y ago
  It reeks of ad-hom, it's a bad explanation. It has no more explanatory power than "because you're a bad person". It's nothing more than a way to feel smug with sciencey sounding buzzwords. If you want to read a book, just get off the computer and read a book. Really? I guess I'll "just" stop all my bad habits and replace them with good habits as well, shall I? And I'll "just" stop playing wrong notes on the piano too. Because, y'know, there's no reason I'm playing wrong notes, is there? There's no reason I have bad habits continuing year on year, there's no reason he's spending too much time on the internet, no complex interplay of a lifetime of biological, neurological and psychological drives and feedbacks, right? Humans are simple. That's why there are no problems in the world and everyone "just" is the ideal person they want to be.
  - Dylan16807 15y ago
    It's easy to avoid playing wrong notes on a piano. Just don't play the piano. Nobody is saying that it's easy to avoid internet distraction while using the internet. But it is easy to block out a few hours of not using the internet even if you are paying for a connection. It's quite similar to not going to a coffee shop for the same few hours.
    - graeme 15y ago
      OP here. I think it depends on your habits and situation. For me, avoiding the cafe for 4 hours is a lot easier than ignoring my computer and phone for 4 hours. To use the internet at the cafe, I have to put on my shoes, my coat, walk 5 minutes, buy a coffee, sit down, open my computer, etc. It's not hard to do any of that. But it's a lot more effort than pulling my phone out of my pocket.
      - abalashov 15y ago
        And, having gone through doing all that, presumably once you get there, you feel a stronger to at least accomplish something, to vindicate your efforts. :-). It's one of the main reasons I find value in having an office, and it is a non-trivial (though, thankfully, subway-based) commute away.
  - Locke1689 15y ago
    There's no reason I have bad habits continuing year on year, there's no reason he's spending too much time on the internet I addressed that rather simply, I thought. It seems that his biggest problem with the Internet was that it was too easily accessible. Not having Internet is a very obdurate way of approaching this, in my opinion. Note that most of the things the writer did as an alternative were not on the computer. Instead of separating the Internet from their computer, I simply suggested separating themselves from the computer.
    - thebigredjay 15y ago
      But I am also much more effective at tasks on the computer when I don't have internet.
emptyaccount 15y ago
While I understand what you're saying, his deliberate choice is a form of self control. "I don't have home internet" is more of a stand-in for "Removing the distraction of the internet is a working form of self control for me" than for "I don't have self control".
_delirium 15y ago
I'm vaguely sympathetic to that viewpoint, but also do think changing your environment matters. Humans are weird creatures, and not really made up of completely disembodied rational minds. Even simple things like choosing to read in one location versus another seem to make significant differences, so I can see not having internet at home making differences too (some positive, some negative). I had no internet in my apt for a few months, and it was also right after I had moved to a new city (it was semi-accidental, due to bullshit with a "pre-wired for ethernet" apartment that I took way longer to give up on than I should have). The mixture of having no internet and not much else in the apt was interesting. It was easier to unwind at the end of the day; go home, cook, read a magazine or book, go to bed. There just wasn't enough in the house to keep me up. It's true that when you have the internet, with all the information and possibilities, it's like I have both an entire library and an entire workshop always available to me. And how am I going to go to sleep in the middle of all that? But I think it was also important I didn't have much else in my apartment at the time; if I had had a bunch of dead-tree encyclopedias, novels, magazines, etc., I would've just read those.
- Locke1689 15y ago
  I can see that, but I also see cutting off your nose to spite your face. Has anything less drastic been tried? Like, for example, making Internet access only available to one computer in the household? If one believes that home Internet access is a bad value proposition I could see that, I guess, but this is such a foreign view point that I don't see how I could have anything to add. Books? I have a Kindle. TV? I don't have cable, I subscribe to Netflix and Hulu+. Cooking? I find many recipes online. Purchasing things? I buy a lot on Amazon. Keeping in touch with friends? Email, gchat, IRC, facebook, etc. The Internet isn't a product. It isn't even a technology. It's an efficient overlay communication network. If you communicate with the outside world it can make everything you do better. If one doesn't, then maybe one has no purpose for it but then I have no purpose for that viewpoint because that life doesn't even exist to me.
wpietri 15y ago
Ah, the prerogative of youth: assuming that because you don't understand something, it must be simple. And that anybody who thinks otherwise is just a fool. Actually, willpower is a limited resource: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_control#As_a_limited_resource http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_control#As_a_limited_resou... The people who make the best use of it shape their environments to avoid temptation: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/18/090518fa_fact_lehrer?currentPage=all http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/18/090518fa_fact_... Exactly as this person did.
- Locke1689 15y ago
  The solution I proposed was perhaps flippant, but not ill-thought out. I stand by my claim that the fundamental problem that the author has is not with the Internet, it's with their willpower. I read the same article as you many years ago when it was first published. My conclusion, however, was different from yours. You seem to have stopped at "manipulate your environment to change how you behave." I preferred the conclusion, "manipulate your environment to change how you think." When I have distraction problems with the Internet I'll restructure my environment to provide gratification in different ways. If Internet browsing is rewarding to me to the point where it causes a distraction it now becomes an effective reward mechanism. I can make a schedule wherein a certain amount of work is rewarded with a small amount of Hacker News. Moreover, the entire Internet isn't to blame for this person's problem, only a certain set of behavior on the Internet. They describe how slower or less rich internet didn't present a distraction. Why not cap their connection speed or disable images, javascript, and sound? I see many options and "get rid of the Internet" seems the most naive and harmful in this case.
  - wpietri 15y ago
    Actually, I think your "solution" was both flippant and ill-thought out. "Just read a book" isn't a solution at all. It doesn't work, and it displays willful ignorance of how willpower works. I'm glad to see you have now responded with some more nuanced notions, but your arrogant "duh, he's doing it wrong" tone still grates. In particular, you assume that he couldn't possibly have thought about the issues you raise. Maybe if you started with the assumption that he has considered them you'd get someplace more interesting.
SatvikBeri 15y ago
There's quite a bit of evidence that willpower is a limited resource [1]. Eg if you're on a diet and have to resist eating chocolate, you'll accomplish less at work. So solutions that let you get away without having to exercise self-control are much more useful than solutions that require expending willpower. [1]: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=willpower+limited+resource&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=t4aBT9y2LeTK0AG1wfiACA&sqi=2&ved=0CBgQgQMwAA http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=willpower+limited+resour...

I don't know, it sounds like "I don't have home internet" is more of a stand-in for "I don't have self control." If you want to read a book, just get off the computer and read a book.

aiscott 15y ago

I completely agree and I find it mystifying that you would be downvoted for that comment.

jodrellblank 15y ago
It reeks of ad-hom, it's a bad explanation. It has no more explanatory power than "because you're a bad person". It's nothing more than a way to feel smug with sciencey sounding buzzwords. If you want to read a book, just get off the computer and read a book. Really? I guess I'll "just" stop all my bad habits and replace them with good habits as well, shall I? And I'll "just" stop playing wrong notes on the piano too. Because, y'know, there's no reason I'm playing wrong notes, is there? There's no reason I have bad habits continuing year on year, there's no reason he's spending too much time on the internet, no complex interplay of a lifetime of biological, neurological and psychological drives and feedbacks, right? Humans are simple. That's why there are no problems in the world and everyone "just" is the ideal person they want to be.
- Dylan16807 15y ago
  It's easy to avoid playing wrong notes on a piano. Just don't play the piano. Nobody is saying that it's easy to avoid internet distraction while using the internet. But it is easy to block out a few hours of not using the internet even if you are paying for a connection. It's quite similar to not going to a coffee shop for the same few hours.
  - graeme 15y ago
    OP here. I think it depends on your habits and situation. For me, avoiding the cafe for 4 hours is a lot easier than ignoring my computer and phone for 4 hours. To use the internet at the cafe, I have to put on my shoes, my coat, walk 5 minutes, buy a coffee, sit down, open my computer, etc. It's not hard to do any of that. But it's a lot more effort than pulling my phone out of my pocket.
    - abalashov 15y ago
      And, having gone through doing all that, presumably once you get there, you feel a stronger to at least accomplish something, to vindicate your efforts. :-). It's one of the main reasons I find value in having an office, and it is a non-trivial (though, thankfully, subway-based) commute away.
- Locke1689 15y ago
  There's no reason I have bad habits continuing year on year, there's no reason he's spending too much time on the internet I addressed that rather simply, I thought. It seems that his biggest problem with the Internet was that it was too easily accessible. Not having Internet is a very obdurate way of approaching this, in my opinion. Note that most of the things the writer did as an alternative were not on the computer. Instead of separating the Internet from their computer, I simply suggested separating themselves from the computer.
  - thebigredjay 15y ago
    But I am also much more effective at tasks on the computer when I don't have internet.

emptyaccount 15y ago

While I understand what you're saying, his deliberate choice is a form of self control. "I don't have home internet" is more of a stand-in for "Removing the distraction of the internet is a working form of self control for me" than for "I don't have self control".

_delirium 15y ago

I'm vaguely sympathetic to that viewpoint, but also do think changing your environment matters. Humans are weird creatures, and not really made up of completely disembodied rational minds. Even simple things like choosing to read in one location versus another seem to make significant differences, so I can see not having internet at home making differences too (some positive, some negative). I had no internet in my apt for a few months, and it was also right after I had moved to a new city (it was semi-accidental, due to bullshit with a "pre-wired for ethernet" apartment that I took way longer to give up on than I should have). The mixture of having no internet and not much else in the apt was interesting. It was easier to unwind at the end of the day; go home, cook, read a magazine or book, go to bed. There just wasn't enough in the house to keep me up. It's true that when you have the internet, with all the information and possibilities, it's like I have both an entire library and an entire workshop always available to me. And how am I going to go to sleep in the middle of all that? But I think it was also important I didn't have much else in my apartment at the time; if I had had a bunch of dead-tree encyclopedias, novels, magazines, etc., I would've just read those.

Locke1689 15y ago
I can see that, but I also see cutting off your nose to spite your face. Has anything less drastic been tried? Like, for example, making Internet access only available to one computer in the household? If one believes that home Internet access is a bad value proposition I could see that, I guess, but this is such a foreign view point that I don't see how I could have anything to add. Books? I have a Kindle. TV? I don't have cable, I subscribe to Netflix and Hulu+. Cooking? I find many recipes online. Purchasing things? I buy a lot on Amazon. Keeping in touch with friends? Email, gchat, IRC, facebook, etc. The Internet isn't a product. It isn't even a technology. It's an efficient overlay communication network. If you communicate with the outside world it can make everything you do better. If one doesn't, then maybe one has no purpose for it but then I have no purpose for that viewpoint because that life doesn't even exist to me.

wpietri 15y ago

Ah, the prerogative of youth: assuming that because you don't understand something, it must be simple. And that anybody who thinks otherwise is just a fool. Actually, willpower is a limited resource: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_control#As_a_limited_resource http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_control#As_a_limited_resou... The people who make the best use of it shape their environments to avoid temptation: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/18/090518fa_fact_lehrer?currentPage=all http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/18/090518fa_fact_... Exactly as this person did.

Locke1689 15y ago
The solution I proposed was perhaps flippant, but not ill-thought out. I stand by my claim that the fundamental problem that the author has is not with the Internet, it's with their willpower. I read the same article as you many years ago when it was first published. My conclusion, however, was different from yours. You seem to have stopped at "manipulate your environment to change how you behave." I preferred the conclusion, "manipulate your environment to change how you think." When I have distraction problems with the Internet I'll restructure my environment to provide gratification in different ways. If Internet browsing is rewarding to me to the point where it causes a distraction it now becomes an effective reward mechanism. I can make a schedule wherein a certain amount of work is rewarded with a small amount of Hacker News. Moreover, the entire Internet isn't to blame for this person's problem, only a certain set of behavior on the Internet. They describe how slower or less rich internet didn't present a distraction. Why not cap their connection speed or disable images, javascript, and sound? I see many options and "get rid of the Internet" seems the most naive and harmful in this case.
- wpietri 15y ago
  Actually, I think your "solution" was both flippant and ill-thought out. "Just read a book" isn't a solution at all. It doesn't work, and it displays willful ignorance of how willpower works. I'm glad to see you have now responded with some more nuanced notions, but your arrogant "duh, he's doing it wrong" tone still grates. In particular, you assume that he couldn't possibly have thought about the issues you raise. Maybe if you started with the assumption that he has considered them you'd get someplace more interesting.

SatvikBeri 15y ago

There's quite a bit of evidence that willpower is a limited resource [1]. Eg if you're on a diet and have to resist eating chocolate, you'll accomplish less at work. So solutions that let you get away without having to exercise self-control are much more useful than solutions that require expending willpower. [1]: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=willpower+limited+resource&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=t4aBT9y2LeTK0AG1wfiACA&sqi=2&ved=0CBgQgQMwAA http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=willpower+limited+resour...