14 ms·

Surf Air: Unlimited Flights for $1k/mo

216 points by callmeed 15y ago

stfu 15y ago
Very interesting idea. Looks like some form of NetJets on a budget.
pranjalv123 15y ago
The problem with this seems that the only people who will buy this are the people who spend more than $1k/mo on flights, so they'll end up having a really hard time making money. But I'd love to be proven wrong.
- jluan 15y ago
  If I'm not mistaken, a decent chunk of expense for commercial airlines is in fees to have a gate and terminal area for their aircraft. Here, they will probably fly out of the general aviation section of airports, where they'll get charged a small ramp fee at most.
  - flashmedium 15y ago
    true, guess an admirals club is out of the question.
    - aaroneous 15y ago
      FBO's are more fun anyway ;)
- botolo 15y ago
  Well, I think the target customer is not the one who buys commercial flights but maybe the one who usually reserve private jets to fly to the Bay Area from LA. $1,000 for this kind of customer could be extremely interesting.
  - sliverstorm 15y ago
    Yea, it's hard to imagine many private individuals would rack up $1,000 every month flying from Palo Alto to LA and back. I've seen $80 specials to fly Bay Area to LA, so you'd have to be making something like 5 round trips a month.
    - latchkey 15y ago
      The difference being that for $80 you're flying with the masses, dealing with TSA, etc...
      - sliverstorm 15y ago
        Of course, I'm just contemplating whether or not they would get many customers who would fly so much as to lose the company money.
    - kooshball 15y ago
      >I've seen $80 specials to fly Bay Area to LA, so you'd have to be making something like 5 round trips a month. The people willing to pay 1k/month for this are probably not in the group of people looking for $80 specials.
    - saryant 15y ago
      Head over to Flyertalk.com. It's more common than you think. Those specials are also inflexible and require either advance planning or a lucky weekend special. The target market for something like this is frequent fliers who need complete flexibility.
    - ajaimk 15y ago
      This is targeted towards not the $80 specials people but the guys who fly 2 or more times a month in first class.
- kaybe 15y ago
  A big argument seems to be the no-hassle idea. No security queues and the ability to book very spontaneously (apparently they make an app for booking) can be good reasons to go with them, I guess. (The heck, I read their whole faq despite being on the other side of the ocean without any need to fly because I find the idea so intriguing..)
polshaw 15y ago
* between Palo Alto/Monterey/Santa Barbara/LA. pretty huge caveat there!
- Aaronontheweb 15y ago
  LA -> Palo Alto is a route I have to make 2-3 times a month (4-6 flights including both legs.) Not a bad MVP to start with for a service like this IMHO.
sokrates 15y ago
Wait, is that a flight startup?
jamesbressi 15y ago
I wish we could get this on the East Coast. D.C. -> Philadelphia -> NYC -> Boston I would easily pay $1000 to $1500 a month. It would as affordable as an Amtrak pass and just as convenient. The possibilities for those who don't want to move to another city for work but want to broaden their options (or course if your salary range allows--but if you are making 100k or more it is brilliant).
- dwynings 15y ago
  They actually had planned to launch on the East Coast, but changed their minds because of the train services there. More info: http://pandodaily.com/2012/04/05/silicon-valley-gets-its-own-airline-surfair/ http://pandodaily.com/2012/04/05/silicon-valley-gets-its-own...
  - melling 15y ago
    "So, will this model work? That’s a big question. They had originally planned to launch it on the East Coast but quickly realized, with the train service there, it wasn’t a great market." Kind of funny. We don't even have high-speed rail in this country yet. The distance between LA and San Francisco is less than 400 miles. Someday it'll be a 2 hour train trip, but it's looking like it'll be another 100 years at this point.
- deleted 15y ago
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- melling 15y ago
  D.C. to Philly is 140 miles. Philly to NYC is 90 miles. NYC to Boston is 220 miles. Is it really necessary to spend $1000-$1500 a month to go that short of a distance? There's 50 year old technology that went into commercial use before man stepped foot on the moon. This is insane. At some point America is going to realize that it needs a 21st century infrastructure. It's going to cost a lot more in 20-30 years, of course.
  - equark 15y ago
huhtenberg 15y ago
Keep in mind -- NO TSA.
deleted 15y ago
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citricsquid 15y ago
This is an absolutely wonderful idea, I just don't see how it can scale into being a workable long term business. I would absolutely pay for this (if I was on the route) but the plane looks very small[1], if there's minimal room and reservations are important (you can't just turn up and fly) the "unlimited" is going to become "your reservation amount" very very fast. The value in being a subscriber would be the flexibility. [1] "that will fly just below the TSA’s radar – using 9-person planes to dodge under their screening of any plane carrying over 10 passengers." -- http://www.forbes.com/sites/edzitron/2011/06/29/planered/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/edzitron/2011/06/29/planered/
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- w1ntermute 15y ago
  > you can't just turn up and fly I bet a lot of people (mostly business(wo)men) would be willing to pay through the nose for a subscription service where: a) You can just turn up and fly b) You get true first-class service and food (à la Pan Am in its heyday), not what they pass off as first-class these days c) Comfortable chairs with lots of legroom (they're most of the way there on this right now with first-class) d) "Volume" subscriptions (just like with software) available for large companies e) Relaxed luggage size/weight requirements f) Good wifi and cell phone service (support for all major carriers) on-board g) No children allowed h) Frequent departures, using small planes i) You don't have to go through all the TSA crap, both the screening as well as restrictions on what you can bring on-board j) No silly restrictions on electronic device usage, including during takeoff and landing The last two would obviously be near impossible thanks to the government, but the others are definitely doable.
  - _delirium 15y ago
    Once you add up the cost of satisfying all those requirements simultaneously, aren't we basically into the corporate-jet-rental price range? You've got stuff like NetJets serving that market.
alphang 15y ago
What's new about this? Other airlines also have vouchers and unlimited plans.
- Blackavar 15y ago
  No TSA, which is almost worth it by itself.
  - homosaur 15y ago
    I wouldn't count on that scenario lasting if that is even the case at all.
dotmatrix22 15y ago
Haha, this is awesome. What can't be done?
cjensen 15y ago
I'm thinking that I work close to the Palo Alto airport, and houses are a lot cheaper near Monterey. I could easily see this working out for me. Then a whole bunch of other people will have the same idea as me, and then it won't work out well. Of course, I also notice they think it will take 15 minutes to get from Palo Alto to Monterey (60 miles straight plus departure/approach navigation) which is unpossible.
- _delirium 15y ago
  > houses are a lot cheaper near Monterey If by "near" you mean Salinas, then yes, but then East Palo Alto is pretty cheap too. Monterey itself (and vicinity like Pacific Grove) is absurdly expensive!
  - cjensen 15y ago
    I was think more of Seaside or Marina. Not as interesting as Pacific Grove, and not as pricey.
rdl 15y ago
Wow, this looks really interesting. Palo Alto to Monterey is definitely within driving distance for me, but if I had any reason to go to LA or SB at all frequently, this would rock. If they'd cover NV, this would be a great way to save a lot of money on taxes -- live in the Reno area, have a NV residence, and fly to the Bay Area 1-2 times/week for meetings. You then only pay income tax on income earned in California, but not on capital gains, and not on any work you do outside California. That could easily be a savings of more than $1k/mo.
- daniel-cussen 15y ago
  Yeah, but you'd have to live in Reno.
  - Homunculiheaded 15y ago
    As someone who moved from Boston to Reno I'm really surprised by all the hate this little city gets. I've always said that it has 80% of what I like about larger cities but only 20% of what I hate. There's a surprising amount of good food, a growing and active hacker community, it's a short drive to tahoe, and SF is just a day trip when you need it, and coming from the northeast the weather is fantastic. At the same time people here think a 20 minute commute is outrageous, the cost of living is insanely cheap, and the majority of the city is extremely safe. Don't get me wrong, I'm never going to argue that, as a city, Reno competes with any larger US cities. But imho it beats that hell out of anywhere that has a similar cost of living. Most people I know in larger cities tend to move an hour or two into the suburbs as they get older and end up making time to get into the city very rarely, I'd definitely take Reno over that. I don't think Reno is the greatest place on earth, but I can never understand why people despise it so much more than anywhere else.
    - rdl 15y ago
      For my lifestyle (I like guns, and a fairly remote, large house), I'd basically prefer to live in NV to living in the Bay Area. But realistically the "commute to SF" lifestyle might work for a consultant or an employee at a late stage company, but not for a startup founder. I really hope Tony Hsieh's Downtown Las Vegas stuff works out well.
carguy1983 15y ago
This looks like a lite-corporate charter plan. Although this wouldn't make sense on my personal finance schedule, for my business this would be an amazing value. But - what airport in LA does this service fly to? Please say Santa Monica. :) LAX, JW, LB, or Burbank would be much less convenient...
- lisper 15y ago
  Don't forget Van Nuys. That's actually the busiest general aviation airport in the world by a wide margin.
  - carguy1983 15y ago
    Sure, Van Nuys. That would also be much less convenient than SM ;)
callmeed 15y ago
Anyone know what type of plane they're using (in the photos) and how many passengers it can hold?
- peterhajas 15y ago
  It's a Pilatus PC-12, capacity of 6 to 8 people depending on configuration.
- mbell 15y ago
  I'm guessing based on the picture alone but I believe its a Pilatus PC-12: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilatus_PC-12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilatus_PC-12
underwater 15y ago
I'm surprised there is no Vegas on that list of destinations.
- latch 15y ago
  "with expanded service to Las Vegas, San Diego, Lake Tahoe and other destinations following soon."
sargun 15y ago
I wonder if you could resell your reservations. Additionally, I would love to support a little airline like this even by buying an occasional single round-trip.
pacaro 15y ago
If you had Boeing field in Seattle, to Palo Alto, then I would probably use this to live in the Bay Area (which my wife would prefer) and work in Redmond - it would take a lifestyle adjustment, but not a huge one.
- ericabiz 15y ago
  If you're used to living in Washington, remember that California will take an additional ~10% of your income over $47,000 to state taxes. That starts to add up in a HUGE way--it's one reason why people are leaving the state in droves [1]. (Housing prices are the other big issue.) [1]: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/27/local/la-me-california-move-20111127 http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/27/local/la-me-californ...
- mahyarm 15y ago
  I think you would prefer Reno/Las Vegas to Seattle
its_so_on 15y ago
let's bring some context to this. the age of the microtransistor has ushered in an era where any businessmale or woman can conduct business or find entertainment anywhere in the world with a delay measured not in hours but in milliseconds, at a cost measured not in the thousands of dollars per month but in the dozens. With unlimited transmission capacity for documents, moving pictures, radio and television broadcasts and recodings, gramophones, and telefacsimiles, equivalent to a Boeing 747's carrying capacity as measured in typewritten pages every fraction of a second, and truly unlimited. All for a modest monthly sum. Sounds too good to be true? Well...thee is one thing. In this age 'truly unlimited' doesn't mean anything anymore, so as to how much you're actually getting or paying, you'll have to see. I guess I'm saying, nice marketing Surf Air - nick it from a telco?
latch 15y ago
I think I have a weird perspective on this, but here goes.. I keep meaning to write about "why I refuse to move to the valley", and transportation and the negative impact it has on housing, is one of them. They are solving a real problem, but if you've lived abroad (or in a few NA cities like NY), you know that it isn't an efficient solution. It also isn't accessible to most. Some of the comments in this thread have, for the first time, made this capitalist associate himself with the 99% movement.
- eob 15y ago
  I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted. Maybe for the final 99% thing you threw in? I agree 100% with your sentiments about transportation in the West. I get that the weather is great and world-class outdoor activities are only a few hours drive away. ...But your groceries are also a drive away. And your friends. And your job. And your restaurant. I live in Cambridge, MA and walk everywhere: to the lab, to the store, to friend's houses, to eat. For people used to it, walkability of a place is a huge, huge living quality factor.
  - ahupp 15y ago
    In San Francisco I can walk, bike, or take the train to most places I care to go. I realize other places (particularly SoCal) aren't like that though.
    - zem 15y ago
      forget socal, just look at the south bay!
  - furyg3 15y ago
    I grew up in Fremont, and worked for many years there, as well as in San Jose, SF, Mountain View. Then I moved to Amsterdam. There are many 'quality of life' reasons why I'm here, but probably one of the biggest is that I'm a 10 minute bike from work, 15 minute train ride to an Int'l airport, 2 minute walk to a dozen cafe's & restaurants. Waiting in line at the grocery store takes longer than the walk home. On dates, my wife and I walk to the movies. Walk/Bike-ability is a huge life improvement. I'd wager that it'll have more impact than a nicer car, a personal driver, or a 'private' jet subscription.
sjasmin 15y ago
Congrats to the team. I have been on some planning calls and they are truly disrupting the airline space!
- jaysonelliot 15y ago
  I wouldn't call a service that is only of use to people that regularly spend more than $1,000/month traveling between four California cities "disrupting the airline space." Not every company with a slightly different business model is "disruptive."
  - defen 15y ago
    Not having to deal with TSA / crowded planes / screaming babies is definitely worth something, so their market is not limited to just people who spend more than $1,000 / month.
  - homosaur 15y ago
    Yeah, but if you're taking four regional flights a month, you are probably spending as much or more than this and you're paying to do it either in a cattle car or for a 300% first class markup. It does have a limited market now, but what happens when they get a little cash and start buying slightly larger planes? What about if this drops to $500 a month? How about $300? I'm guessing businesses would be all over it. Think about buying a plan for an entire business, not just a single traveler.
dangero 15y ago
One thing that wasn't clear to me was how much in advance you will need to book your flights. Was that explained somewhere? It's really a question of how many members they allow per plane. The ability to reserve more spaces seems to indicate that you have to plan in advance.
abalashov 15y ago
Whatever the commercial viability of this particular idea, I hope that pressure from such ventures, whether delusional or otherwise, can inspire greater democratisation and fare transparency in air travel. For instance, I would be willing to pay an airline some amount of monthly recurring fees (though perhaps not $1k) to option certain seats on a large selection of flights at low prices. The monthly recurring revenue could, in theory, offset the impact of my unpredictability as a passenger on booking calculations. Edit: On the other hand, I'd much rather the money go into some sort of vaguely 21st century high-speed rail infrastructure, particularly for short to medium inter-city trips. The absence of such makes us the laughingstock of Europe and Asia.
- excuse-me 15y ago
  Thats what you get now (and for the last 40years)by buying full price tickets - you can simply not checkin and pay nothing Thats the whole reason for overbooking flights, adn why you can upgrade to 1st class - the airline only knows that the discount seats will show up
  - zackattack 15y ago
    $180 for a flight tomorrow AM on southwest SFO LAX. That's $360 RT. Of course Palo Alto is more convenient than SFO and you're going to be taking a $100 car ride each way that's $200. So $560. Four times a month and it's a bargain... I know plenty of people from Palo Alto who had made that type of commute twice a week.
- drgath 15y ago
  > The absence of such makes us the laughingstock of Europe and Asia. Please. The geography of the US compared to these Europe & Asia projects are so radically different, the reason high-speed rail hasn't been a priority is because it isn't as viable here. Rail fares are more expensive than flights [1], and a trip from SF<->LA would take anywhere from 2-3 times as long. No thanks. I've traveled by air and rail around Europe, and I greatly prefer flying. Cheaper, and faster. The only people laughing at us are the americans who think a rail infrastructure is something to be jealous of. [1] http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/2011/11/despite-rising-price-tag-high-speed-rail-fares-are-projected-remain-steady http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/2011/11/despite-rising-price...
loverobots 15y ago
Someone with private jet cost knowledge should be able to run some numbers really quick: they have 9 seat jets that cost a certain amount to buy /lease /fuel /service. Assume that all nine passengers travel just once a month and then move to 1.5 times a month, then twice a month and so on. My layman guess is that this is introductory pricing and they might to revise it pretty soon. *I pay $50 in gas to travel 250 miles with my full size sedan car, so jet fuel alone must be a lot. Another major deal breaker is wait time. Do I have to make reservations 4 months in advance or can I call the same day?
- aaroneous 15y ago
  It's unlikely to be a jet for such short distances. From their website it looks like the Pilatus PC-12 (single engine turboprop). Those burn around 65 gallons per hour @ ~$5.50/gal for Jet-A and cruise at somewhere north of 300mph.
twoodfin 15y ago
This sounds almost too good to be true. I think, though, they'll hit the same problem as many other "unlimited" services: Those customers most likely to buy it are the ones most likely to use it to excess. How do they make money with their "best" customers flying a dozen times a month or more, not only consuming jet fuel, but also potentially blocking out the guy who books twice a month?
venturebros 15y ago
I would love the option to pay for unlimited air travel. The "All You Can Jet" pass from JetBlue hit the sweet spot at $599 with a 3 month window and many destinations. I would like to see a company offer that again even if it means a no frills military transport style plane.
- stfu 15y ago
  Love the military transport style plane idea. If they were using an actual military cargo plane, I would be all up for that, just for the experience.
deleted 15y ago
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prostoalex 15y ago
It seems that a customer has no control about specific departure day or time? So it's less of a "fly to Santa Monica on Tuesday, come back on Thursday", and more of "give me the next available flight to Santa Monica, whenever it comes up, which could be a week from now"?
annon 15y ago
I know they're adding Vegas soon, but adding NYC would be absolutely killer. I would sign up immediately for LA-Vegas-NYC.
- piotrSikora 15y ago
  They would need to either: add stopovers or buy a lot more expensive airplane to fly such long range.
AndyNemmity 15y ago
PHX -> Palo Alto would be perfect. Alas, no Phx. :(
phamilton 15y ago
Add Mammoth Lakes, Tahoe and San Diego and I could see this really catching on. LA to Mammoth is 5 hours and yet it is the ski area of choice for most of southern california. I even had a season pass and would drive up for one day trips if the snow was good.
Julianhearn 15y ago
This is a terrible idea. Why do people still need to do vast amounts of air travel when we have the Internet, Skype, gotomeeting, etc. air travel involves a lot of wasted time and a LOT of carbon emissions. We should be encouraging less travel not more.
- Nrsolis 15y ago
  Sales is still a very person to person thing. To date, there is no substitute for direct personal interaction when it comes to relationship building. Which would you rather have: Dinner with $FAVORITE_CELEBRITY or the equivalent Skype session?
Flemlord 15y ago
Lots of comments about not being able to "just turn up and fly." My wife and I are in a boat club that's structured the same way--one flat annual fee and you can reserve a boat any time you want. Only one reservation at a time. Never once have we been unable to reserve a boat, even on a holiday with only a few hours notice. I assume the same level of availability would be possible in a flying club, dependent of course on the ratio of travelers to planes.
- piotrSikora 15y ago
  What you describe is "franctional ownership" for owner-pilots and there are already equivalents of that in the airspace (i.e. AirShare Elite - http://www.airshareselite.com/ http://www.airshareselite.com/). The difference between SurfAir and fractional ownership is that the latter usually have a fleet of semi-identical vehicles (boats, planes, whatever) that are available at your disposal and that you are able to operate them... With SurfAir, it seems like there is only one plane with a pilot, which greatly limits flexibility and availability of the program.
teyc 15y ago
Over on NPR Planet Money, there was an episode that suggested that looking at how much money airlines have lost, cheap flights are a function of shareholder largess. it is one commodity that hasn't made their investors much money. Timeshare is an interesting business model, especially if they can achieve required scale, upon which they become defensible.
lutorm 15y ago
Interesting idea, but I can't quite figure out how it would work. Do they have set departures or can you tell them to go whereever as long as no one else has booked it? I'm moving to a job in Hawthorne (LA), and since I hate sitting in traffic, I'm strongly considering commuting by air. I'd fly myself though, even with a low-end general aviation plane you can comfortably get out of LA in 45 minutes. Apparently it's done: http://www.aopa.org/learntofly/whyfly/commute.html http://www.aopa.org/learntofly/whyfly/commute.html :)
polynomial 15y ago
Their business may be ready for takeoff, however their website has already crashed.

216 points by callmeed 15y ago

stfu 15y ago

Very interesting idea. Looks like some form of NetJets on a budget.

The problem with this seems that the only people who will buy this are the people who spend more than $1k/mo on flights, so they'll end up having a really hard time making money. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

jluan 15y ago
If I'm not mistaken, a decent chunk of expense for commercial airlines is in fees to have a gate and terminal area for their aircraft. Here, they will probably fly out of the general aviation section of airports, where they'll get charged a small ramp fee at most.
- flashmedium 15y ago
  true, guess an admirals club is out of the question.
  - aaroneous 15y ago
    FBO's are more fun anyway ;)
botolo 15y ago
Well, I think the target customer is not the one who buys commercial flights but maybe the one who usually reserve private jets to fly to the Bay Area from LA. $1,000 for this kind of customer could be extremely interesting.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  Yea, it's hard to imagine many private individuals would rack up $1,000 every month flying from Palo Alto to LA and back. I've seen $80 specials to fly Bay Area to LA, so you'd have to be making something like 5 round trips a month.
  - latchkey 15y ago
    The difference being that for $80 you're flying with the masses, dealing with TSA, etc...
    - sliverstorm 15y ago
      Of course, I'm just contemplating whether or not they would get many customers who would fly so much as to lose the company money.
  - kooshball 15y ago
    >I've seen $80 specials to fly Bay Area to LA, so you'd have to be making something like 5 round trips a month. The people willing to pay 1k/month for this are probably not in the group of people looking for $80 specials.
  - saryant 15y ago
    Head over to Flyertalk.com. It's more common than you think. Those specials are also inflexible and require either advance planning or a lucky weekend special. The target market for something like this is frequent fliers who need complete flexibility.
  - ajaimk 15y ago
    This is targeted towards not the $80 specials people but the guys who fly 2 or more times a month in first class.
kaybe 15y ago
A big argument seems to be the no-hassle idea. No security queues and the ability to book very spontaneously (apparently they make an app for booking) can be good reasons to go with them, I guess. (The heck, I read their whole faq despite being on the other side of the ocean without any need to fly because I find the idea so intriguing..)

polshaw 15y ago

* between Palo Alto/Monterey/Santa Barbara/LA. pretty huge caveat there!

Aaronontheweb 15y ago
LA -> Palo Alto is a route I have to make 2-3 times a month (4-6 flights including both legs.) Not a bad MVP to start with for a service like this IMHO.

sokrates 15y ago

Wait, is that a flight startup?

jamesbressi 15y ago

I wish we could get this on the East Coast. D.C. -> Philadelphia -> NYC -> Boston I would easily pay $1000 to $1500 a month. It would as affordable as an Amtrak pass and just as convenient. The possibilities for those who don't want to move to another city for work but want to broaden their options (or course if your salary range allows--but if you are making 100k or more it is brilliant).

dwynings 15y ago
They actually had planned to launch on the East Coast, but changed their minds because of the train services there. More info: http://pandodaily.com/2012/04/05/silicon-valley-gets-its-own-airline-surfair/ http://pandodaily.com/2012/04/05/silicon-valley-gets-its-own...
- melling 15y ago
  "So, will this model work? That’s a big question. They had originally planned to launch it on the East Coast but quickly realized, with the train service there, it wasn’t a great market." Kind of funny. We don't even have high-speed rail in this country yet. The distance between LA and San Francisco is less than 400 miles. Someday it'll be a 2 hour train trip, but it's looking like it'll be another 100 years at this point.
deleted 15y ago
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melling 15y ago
D.C. to Philly is 140 miles. Philly to NYC is 90 miles. NYC to Boston is 220 miles. Is it really necessary to spend $1000-$1500 a month to go that short of a distance? There's 50 year old technology that went into commercial use before man stepped foot on the moon. This is insane. At some point America is going to realize that it needs a 21st century infrastructure. It's going to cost a lot more in 20-30 years, of course.
- equark 15y ago

huhtenberg 15y ago

Keep in mind -- NO TSA.

deleted 15y ago

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citricsquid 15y ago

This is an absolutely wonderful idea, I just don't see how it can scale into being a workable long term business. I would absolutely pay for this (if I was on the route) but the plane looks very small[1], if there's minimal room and reservations are important (you can't just turn up and fly) the "unlimited" is going to become "your reservation amount" very very fast. The value in being a subscriber would be the flexibility. [1] "that will fly just below the TSA’s radar – using 9-person planes to dodge under their screening of any plane carrying over 10 passengers." -- http://www.forbes.com/sites/edzitron/2011/06/29/planered/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/edzitron/2011/06/29/planered/

deleted 15y ago
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w1ntermute 15y ago
> you can't just turn up and fly I bet a lot of people (mostly business(wo)men) would be willing to pay through the nose for a subscription service where: a) You can just turn up and fly b) You get true first-class service and food (à la Pan Am in its heyday), not what they pass off as first-class these days c) Comfortable chairs with lots of legroom (they're most of the way there on this right now with first-class) d) "Volume" subscriptions (just like with software) available for large companies e) Relaxed luggage size/weight requirements f) Good wifi and cell phone service (support for all major carriers) on-board g) No children allowed h) Frequent departures, using small planes i) You don't have to go through all the TSA crap, both the screening as well as restrictions on what you can bring on-board j) No silly restrictions on electronic device usage, including during takeoff and landing The last two would obviously be near impossible thanks to the government, but the others are definitely doable.
- _delirium 15y ago
  Once you add up the cost of satisfying all those requirements simultaneously, aren't we basically into the corporate-jet-rental price range? You've got stuff like NetJets serving that market.

alphang 15y ago

What's new about this? Other airlines also have vouchers and unlimited plans.

Blackavar 15y ago
No TSA, which is almost worth it by itself.
- homosaur 15y ago
  I wouldn't count on that scenario lasting if that is even the case at all.

dotmatrix22 15y ago

Haha, this is awesome. What can't be done?

cjensen 15y ago

I'm thinking that I work close to the Palo Alto airport, and houses are a lot cheaper near Monterey. I could easily see this working out for me. Then a whole bunch of other people will have the same idea as me, and then it won't work out well. Of course, I also notice they think it will take 15 minutes to get from Palo Alto to Monterey (60 miles straight plus departure/approach navigation) which is unpossible.

_delirium 15y ago
> houses are a lot cheaper near Monterey If by "near" you mean Salinas, then yes, but then East Palo Alto is pretty cheap too. Monterey itself (and vicinity like Pacific Grove) is absurdly expensive!
- cjensen 15y ago
  I was think more of Seaside or Marina. Not as interesting as Pacific Grove, and not as pricey.

rdl 15y ago

Wow, this looks really interesting. Palo Alto to Monterey is definitely within driving distance for me, but if I had any reason to go to LA or SB at all frequently, this would rock. If they'd cover NV, this would be a great way to save a lot of money on taxes -- live in the Reno area, have a NV residence, and fly to the Bay Area 1-2 times/week for meetings. You then only pay income tax on income earned in California, but not on capital gains, and not on any work you do outside California. That could easily be a savings of more than $1k/mo.

daniel-cussen 15y ago
Yeah, but you'd have to live in Reno.
- Homunculiheaded 15y ago
  As someone who moved from Boston to Reno I'm really surprised by all the hate this little city gets. I've always said that it has 80% of what I like about larger cities but only 20% of what I hate. There's a surprising amount of good food, a growing and active hacker community, it's a short drive to tahoe, and SF is just a day trip when you need it, and coming from the northeast the weather is fantastic. At the same time people here think a 20 minute commute is outrageous, the cost of living is insanely cheap, and the majority of the city is extremely safe. Don't get me wrong, I'm never going to argue that, as a city, Reno competes with any larger US cities. But imho it beats that hell out of anywhere that has a similar cost of living. Most people I know in larger cities tend to move an hour or two into the suburbs as they get older and end up making time to get into the city very rarely, I'd definitely take Reno over that. I don't think Reno is the greatest place on earth, but I can never understand why people despise it so much more than anywhere else.
  - rdl 15y ago
    For my lifestyle (I like guns, and a fairly remote, large house), I'd basically prefer to live in NV to living in the Bay Area. But realistically the "commute to SF" lifestyle might work for a consultant or an employee at a late stage company, but not for a startup founder. I really hope Tony Hsieh's Downtown Las Vegas stuff works out well.

carguy1983 15y ago

This looks like a lite-corporate charter plan. Although this wouldn't make sense on my personal finance schedule, for my business this would be an amazing value. But - what airport in LA does this service fly to? Please say Santa Monica. :) LAX, JW, LB, or Burbank would be much less convenient...

lisper 15y ago
Don't forget Van Nuys. That's actually the busiest general aviation airport in the world by a wide margin.
- carguy1983 15y ago
  Sure, Van Nuys. That would also be much less convenient than SM ;)

callmeed 15y ago

Anyone know what type of plane they're using (in the photos) and how many passengers it can hold?

peterhajas 15y ago
It's a Pilatus PC-12, capacity of 6 to 8 people depending on configuration.
mbell 15y ago
I'm guessing based on the picture alone but I believe its a Pilatus PC-12: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilatus_PC-12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilatus_PC-12

underwater 15y ago

I'm surprised there is no Vegas on that list of destinations.

latch 15y ago
"with expanded service to Las Vegas, San Diego, Lake Tahoe and other destinations following soon."

sargun 15y ago

I wonder if you could resell your reservations. Additionally, I would love to support a little airline like this even by buying an occasional single round-trip.

pacaro 15y ago

If you had Boeing field in Seattle, to Palo Alto, then I would probably use this to live in the Bay Area (which my wife would prefer) and work in Redmond - it would take a lifestyle adjustment, but not a huge one.

ericabiz 15y ago
If you're used to living in Washington, remember that California will take an additional ~10% of your income over $47,000 to state taxes. That starts to add up in a HUGE way--it's one reason why people are leaving the state in droves [1]. (Housing prices are the other big issue.) [1]: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/27/local/la-me-california-move-20111127 http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/27/local/la-me-californ...
mahyarm 15y ago
I think you would prefer Reno/Las Vegas to Seattle

its_so_on 15y ago

let's bring some context to this. the age of the microtransistor has ushered in an era where any businessmale or woman can conduct business or find entertainment anywhere in the world with a delay measured not in hours but in milliseconds, at a cost measured not in the thousands of dollars per month but in the dozens. With unlimited transmission capacity for documents, moving pictures, radio and television broadcasts and recodings, gramophones, and telefacsimiles, equivalent to a Boeing 747's carrying capacity as measured in typewritten pages every fraction of a second, and truly unlimited. All for a modest monthly sum. Sounds too good to be true? Well...thee is one thing. In this age 'truly unlimited' doesn't mean anything anymore, so as to how much you're actually getting or paying, you'll have to see. I guess I'm saying, nice marketing Surf Air - nick it from a telco?

latch 15y ago

I think I have a weird perspective on this, but here goes.. I keep meaning to write about "why I refuse to move to the valley", and transportation and the negative impact it has on housing, is one of them. They are solving a real problem, but if you've lived abroad (or in a few NA cities like NY), you know that it isn't an efficient solution. It also isn't accessible to most. Some of the comments in this thread have, for the first time, made this capitalist associate himself with the 99% movement.

eob 15y ago
I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted. Maybe for the final 99% thing you threw in? I agree 100% with your sentiments about transportation in the West. I get that the weather is great and world-class outdoor activities are only a few hours drive away. ...But your groceries are also a drive away. And your friends. And your job. And your restaurant. I live in Cambridge, MA and walk everywhere: to the lab, to the store, to friend's houses, to eat. For people used to it, walkability of a place is a huge, huge living quality factor.
- ahupp 15y ago
  In San Francisco I can walk, bike, or take the train to most places I care to go. I realize other places (particularly SoCal) aren't like that though.
  - zem 15y ago
    forget socal, just look at the south bay!
- furyg3 15y ago
  I grew up in Fremont, and worked for many years there, as well as in San Jose, SF, Mountain View. Then I moved to Amsterdam. There are many 'quality of life' reasons why I'm here, but probably one of the biggest is that I'm a 10 minute bike from work, 15 minute train ride to an Int'l airport, 2 minute walk to a dozen cafe's & restaurants. Waiting in line at the grocery store takes longer than the walk home. On dates, my wife and I walk to the movies. Walk/Bike-ability is a huge life improvement. I'd wager that it'll have more impact than a nicer car, a personal driver, or a 'private' jet subscription.

sjasmin 15y ago

Congrats to the team. I have been on some planning calls and they are truly disrupting the airline space!

jaysonelliot 15y ago
I wouldn't call a service that is only of use to people that regularly spend more than $1,000/month traveling between four California cities "disrupting the airline space." Not every company with a slightly different business model is "disruptive."
- defen 15y ago
  Not having to deal with TSA / crowded planes / screaming babies is definitely worth something, so their market is not limited to just people who spend more than $1,000 / month.
- homosaur 15y ago
  Yeah, but if you're taking four regional flights a month, you are probably spending as much or more than this and you're paying to do it either in a cattle car or for a 300% first class markup. It does have a limited market now, but what happens when they get a little cash and start buying slightly larger planes? What about if this drops to $500 a month? How about $300? I'm guessing businesses would be all over it. Think about buying a plan for an entire business, not just a single traveler.

dangero 15y ago

One thing that wasn't clear to me was how much in advance you will need to book your flights. Was that explained somewhere? It's really a question of how many members they allow per plane. The ability to reserve more spaces seems to indicate that you have to plan in advance.

abalashov 15y ago

Whatever the commercial viability of this particular idea, I hope that pressure from such ventures, whether delusional or otherwise, can inspire greater democratisation and fare transparency in air travel. For instance, I would be willing to pay an airline some amount of monthly recurring fees (though perhaps not $1k) to option certain seats on a large selection of flights at low prices. The monthly recurring revenue could, in theory, offset the impact of my unpredictability as a passenger on booking calculations. Edit: On the other hand, I'd much rather the money go into some sort of vaguely 21st century high-speed rail infrastructure, particularly for short to medium inter-city trips. The absence of such makes us the laughingstock of Europe and Asia.

excuse-me 15y ago
Thats what you get now (and for the last 40years)by buying full price tickets - you can simply not checkin and pay nothing Thats the whole reason for overbooking flights, adn why you can upgrade to 1st class - the airline only knows that the discount seats will show up
- zackattack 15y ago
  $180 for a flight tomorrow AM on southwest SFO LAX. That's $360 RT. Of course Palo Alto is more convenient than SFO and you're going to be taking a $100 car ride each way that's $200. So $560. Four times a month and it's a bargain... I know plenty of people from Palo Alto who had made that type of commute twice a week.
drgath 15y ago
> The absence of such makes us the laughingstock of Europe and Asia. Please. The geography of the US compared to these Europe & Asia projects are so radically different, the reason high-speed rail hasn't been a priority is because it isn't as viable here. Rail fares are more expensive than flights [1], and a trip from SF<->LA would take anywhere from 2-3 times as long. No thanks. I've traveled by air and rail around Europe, and I greatly prefer flying. Cheaper, and faster. The only people laughing at us are the americans who think a rail infrastructure is something to be jealous of. [1] http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/2011/11/despite-rising-price-tag-high-speed-rail-fares-are-projected-remain-steady http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/2011/11/despite-rising-price...

loverobots 15y ago

Someone with private jet cost knowledge should be able to run some numbers really quick: they have 9 seat jets that cost a certain amount to buy /lease /fuel /service. Assume that all nine passengers travel just once a month and then move to 1.5 times a month, then twice a month and so on. My layman guess is that this is introductory pricing and they might to revise it pretty soon. *I pay $50 in gas to travel 250 miles with my full size sedan car, so jet fuel alone must be a lot. Another major deal breaker is wait time. Do I have to make reservations 4 months in advance or can I call the same day?

aaroneous 15y ago
It's unlikely to be a jet for such short distances. From their website it looks like the Pilatus PC-12 (single engine turboprop). Those burn around 65 gallons per hour @ ~$5.50/gal for Jet-A and cruise at somewhere north of 300mph.

twoodfin 15y ago

This sounds almost too good to be true. I think, though, they'll hit the same problem as many other "unlimited" services: Those customers most likely to buy it are the ones most likely to use it to excess. How do they make money with their "best" customers flying a dozen times a month or more, not only consuming jet fuel, but also potentially blocking out the guy who books twice a month?

venturebros 15y ago

I would love the option to pay for unlimited air travel. The "All You Can Jet" pass from JetBlue hit the sweet spot at $599 with a 3 month window and many destinations. I would like to see a company offer that again even if it means a no frills military transport style plane.

stfu 15y ago
Love the military transport style plane idea. If they were using an actual military cargo plane, I would be all up for that, just for the experience.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

prostoalex 15y ago

It seems that a customer has no control about specific departure day or time? So it's less of a "fly to Santa Monica on Tuesday, come back on Thursday", and more of "give me the next available flight to Santa Monica, whenever it comes up, which could be a week from now"?

annon 15y ago

I know they're adding Vegas soon, but adding NYC would be absolutely killer. I would sign up immediately for LA-Vegas-NYC.

piotrSikora 15y ago
They would need to either: add stopovers or buy a lot more expensive airplane to fly such long range.

AndyNemmity 15y ago

PHX -> Palo Alto would be perfect. Alas, no Phx. :(

phamilton 15y ago

Add Mammoth Lakes, Tahoe and San Diego and I could see this really catching on. LA to Mammoth is 5 hours and yet it is the ski area of choice for most of southern california. I even had a season pass and would drive up for one day trips if the snow was good.

Julianhearn 15y ago

This is a terrible idea. Why do people still need to do vast amounts of air travel when we have the Internet, Skype, gotomeeting, etc. air travel involves a lot of wasted time and a LOT of carbon emissions. We should be encouraging less travel not more.

Nrsolis 15y ago
Sales is still a very person to person thing. To date, there is no substitute for direct personal interaction when it comes to relationship building. Which would you rather have: Dinner with $FAVORITE_CELEBRITY or the equivalent Skype session?

Flemlord 15y ago

Lots of comments about not being able to "just turn up and fly." My wife and I are in a boat club that's structured the same way--one flat annual fee and you can reserve a boat any time you want. Only one reservation at a time. Never once have we been unable to reserve a boat, even on a holiday with only a few hours notice. I assume the same level of availability would be possible in a flying club, dependent of course on the ratio of travelers to planes.

piotrSikora 15y ago
What you describe is "franctional ownership" for owner-pilots and there are already equivalents of that in the airspace (i.e. AirShare Elite - http://www.airshareselite.com/ http://www.airshareselite.com/). The difference between SurfAir and fractional ownership is that the latter usually have a fleet of semi-identical vehicles (boats, planes, whatever) that are available at your disposal and that you are able to operate them... With SurfAir, it seems like there is only one plane with a pilot, which greatly limits flexibility and availability of the program.

teyc 15y ago

Over on NPR Planet Money, there was an episode that suggested that looking at how much money airlines have lost, cheap flights are a function of shareholder largess. it is one commodity that hasn't made their investors much money. Timeshare is an interesting business model, especially if they can achieve required scale, upon which they become defensible.

lutorm 15y ago

Interesting idea, but I can't quite figure out how it would work. Do they have set departures or can you tell them to go whereever as long as no one else has booked it? I'm moving to a job in Hawthorne (LA), and since I hate sitting in traffic, I'm strongly considering commuting by air. I'd fly myself though, even with a low-end general aviation plane you can comfortably get out of LA in 45 minutes. Apparently it's done: http://www.aopa.org/learntofly/whyfly/commute.html http://www.aopa.org/learntofly/whyfly/commute.html :)

polynomial 15y ago

Their business may be ready for takeoff, however their website has already crashed.