4 ms·

While I agree that much more focus should be given to helping victims and much less to retribution, deterrence is also a key pillar of the justice system and sh

by franga2000 3y ago

While I agree that much more focus should be given to helping victims and much less to retribution, deterrence is also a key pillar of the justice system and should definitely be exercised here. It's likely not possible to make all victims "whole again", but we can make up for that by "making an example" to other potential criminals, showing them the "danger" of committing similar crimes. If "the next SBF" sees the risk of life in prison isn't worth it and decides against running a similar scheme, we've actually saved more people than we could've by only repaying damages to SBF's victims.

MrRolleyes 3y ago
> deterrence is also a key pillar of the justice system Oh is that why our justice system is so terrible at actually reducing crime?
- nradov 3y ago
  Terrible at reducing crime compared to what? Is there another justice system which is better at reducing crime (without introducing a police state)?
  - MrRolleyes 3y ago
    > Is there another justice system which is better at reducing crime (without introducing a police state)? Many other countries—especially countries nearly as rich as us—manage a lower crime rate with a lower proportion of spending on policing and lower sentencing times. I have full faith we can improve on those systems, too—there's boatloads of evidence showing that financial safety nets invested in over decades is a much more cost-effective way of reducing crime. Regardless, even in justice theory there are other ideologies, such as restorative justice. This is not just idle windbagging.
- WindyLakeReturn 3y ago
  Is it terrible? If we were to remove the system and keep it gone for some set amount of time, once people realize it was really gone, would crimes not come back? We can compare to other countries and see their rates of crime, but such comparisons are difficult to make accurately because you are judging all social differences at once, not just a different legal system. Including things like how much lead has the population been exposed to, effect of poverty and sense of community. Things far beyond the legal system.
  - MrRolleyes 3y ago
    > If we were to remove the system and keep it gone for some set amount of time, once people realize it was really gone, would crimes not come back? Why are you comparing it to a lack of a justice system rather than to a more competent justice system? > We can compare to other countries and see their rates of crime, but such comparisons are difficult to make accurately because you are judging all social differences at once, not just a different legal system. Including things like how much lead has the population been exposed to, effect of poverty and sense of community. Things far beyond the legal system. Poverty is absolutely a part of the legal system—it takes the legal institution of private property, for instance, to ensure wealth stays unequal.
rossdavidh 3y ago
Actually the last estimate I heard was that victims might get 90% back from the bankruptcy proceedings, depending on how the Anthropic shares are handled, whether the FTX exchange is really restarted, etc. etc. Doesn't mean he didn't commit fraud, just that there is an outside chance of the victims being made whole again.

MrRolleyes 3y ago

> deterrence is also a key pillar of the justice system Oh is that why our justice system is so terrible at actually reducing crime?

nradov 3y ago
Terrible at reducing crime compared to what? Is there another justice system which is better at reducing crime (without introducing a police state)?
- MrRolleyes 3y ago
  > Is there another justice system which is better at reducing crime (without introducing a police state)? Many other countries—especially countries nearly as rich as us—manage a lower crime rate with a lower proportion of spending on policing and lower sentencing times. I have full faith we can improve on those systems, too—there's boatloads of evidence showing that financial safety nets invested in over decades is a much more cost-effective way of reducing crime. Regardless, even in justice theory there are other ideologies, such as restorative justice. This is not just idle windbagging.
WindyLakeReturn 3y ago
Is it terrible? If we were to remove the system and keep it gone for some set amount of time, once people realize it was really gone, would crimes not come back? We can compare to other countries and see their rates of crime, but such comparisons are difficult to make accurately because you are judging all social differences at once, not just a different legal system. Including things like how much lead has the population been exposed to, effect of poverty and sense of community. Things far beyond the legal system.
- MrRolleyes 3y ago
  > If we were to remove the system and keep it gone for some set amount of time, once people realize it was really gone, would crimes not come back? Why are you comparing it to a lack of a justice system rather than to a more competent justice system? > We can compare to other countries and see their rates of crime, but such comparisons are difficult to make accurately because you are judging all social differences at once, not just a different legal system. Including things like how much lead has the population been exposed to, effect of poverty and sense of community. Things far beyond the legal system. Poverty is absolutely a part of the legal system—it takes the legal institution of private property, for instance, to ensure wealth stays unequal.

rossdavidh 3y ago

Actually the last estimate I heard was that victims might get 90% back from the bankruptcy proceedings, depending on how the Anthropic shares are handled, whether the FTX exchange is really restarted, etc. etc. Doesn't mean he didn't commit fraud, just that there is an outside chance of the victims being made whole again.