5 ms·

The thing is, while there's a lot of crap EVs at inflated prices that nobody wants to buy, good EVs are back ordered. Chevy dealers do everything they can to av

The thing is, while there's a lot of crap EVs at inflated prices that nobody wants to buy, good EVs are back ordered. Chevy dealers do everything they can to avoid selling Bolts but they're still months away from having stock.

api 3y ago
So what we are really seeing here is an industry that desperately wants customers not to want certain things, such as affordable ultra low maintenance cheap to operate EVs. But customers want these things and will search them out. Sounds like a recipe for us to lose our auto industry to China. The instant some upstart puts a $20k simple super reliable EV on the market it’s over, and we will deserve it. Of course some subset will keep buying the biggest F-9000 Super Chungus they can find while complaining about the price of gas, so maybe that will keep legacy auto alive.
- user_named 3y ago
  BYD has a new EV for 70k rmb, around $10k. And another one for around $13k, and so on. So it's not a one off. Cars are getting massively cheaper. I don't see why you'd pay $50k for one.
  - viraptor 3y ago
    BYD is interesting. I've not seen them advertising as much as other brands. Just spotted one being shown in a shopping centre about a year ago, then they start popping up all over the place. I expect to see a huge number of them soon - they're permanently out of stock the whole time as far as I can tell. They provide the non-luxury thing that most people want/can afford and will make a killing while other manufacturers fumble around.
    - theodric 3y ago
      BYD and ORA (Great Wall) are both operating in Ireland. I've sat in them, not driven, but they seem fairly well-put-together on the surface. The little ORA Funky Cat city car is adorable, though not exactly cheap as chips at €32000 for the entry-level model. After Mozilla's damning recent analysis of the major car brands' user privacy [1], however, I'd be very curious to know what data the Chinese EVs are sending back, and to whom. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37404413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37404413
  - bdcravens 3y ago
    Those cheapest EVs are tiny hatchbacks that really aren't popular here, and they use batteries that charge much slower. The US market has an expectation of bigger is better, and even "economy" cars have features on them you'd only find on luxury cars not that long ago. Pushing back against that culture is a challenge.
    - api 3y ago
      The US market will buy small cars but US small is bigger than Asia or Europe small. A Bolt or Nissan Leaf with NACS fast charge and a bit better looks will sell pretty well. The Tesla model 3 sells.
      - bdcravens 3y ago
        I agree. I just don't think we'll see cars like BYD is selling. I'd love to see one of the typical 4-door 4-cylinder "economy" cars like the Sentra, Corolla, or Civic with an EV transmission.
        api 3y ago
        That’s why I quoted $20k not $10k. The floor is higher in the US market. But people definitely will buy something like an improved Leaf or Bolt.
  - momirlan 3y ago
    The main point is not the price though, it's the infrastructure and the fast obsolescence of batteries. There are no batteries currently that will last the life of a car, so what do you do when they quit ? Replace them, for what price ? I might get an EV in 10 years or so, when there is a clear vision for infrastructure and battery technology.
    - stubish 3y ago
      I think it is price. Here I see cars with batteries that last well enough for 10+ years, and I'm confident that the price will drop over time if I keep one long enough to actually want to replace it. Along with all the other parts that wear out. Over here I think new car buyers won't tend to drive their cars into the ground, with cars on the road after 20 years generally having been purchased second hand. I don't know how the second hand market or resale value of EVs will look.
- BestGuess 3y ago
  Yeah you see that a lot when all of a sudden every single one in the US market yanks out every affordable option all at the same time or "mysteriously" makes them impossible to buy but somehow that isn't collusion or anything. Then these same lying fuckers in suits declare americans "don't want" those options they conspired to make as difficult as possible to get in the first place. You saw the same thing with microcars or anything especially affordable the past couple years. They only want to sell giant gas guzzling insanely expensive XXL crap and are doing their best to keep affordable shit off the market meanwhile it all sells just fine everywhere else. It's obvious how rigged the whole thing is same with real estate and "automatic price adjustments" that coincidentally biases things in favor of landlords, same for other software that biases things in favor of other colluding fucks like the auto industry so they merely "coincidentally" conspire. It's all total bullshit. What pisses me off is the fact people somehow think an industry agreeing to use algorithms that only go in their favor and most of all if they all use those algorithms together doesn't count as collusion.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >They only want to sell giant gas guzzling insanely expensive XXL crap AI generated Chevy Goliath Ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI7Tq6sRxE4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI7Tq6sRxE4
    - BestGuess 3y ago
      That's too real and gosh dang horrifyin
    - hindsightbias 3y ago
      Simpsons did it first https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI_Jl5WFQkA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI_Jl5WFQkA
      - morkalork 3y ago
        https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1613599573955444751 https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1613599573955444751
- stubish 3y ago
  In Australia, the vast majority of EV models on the market are luxury vehicles. You can count on one hand the number of vehicles in the 'midrange' price point (~$AUD 50k is my yardstick), and absolutely nothing anyone considers cheap. Budget conscious purchasers get to choose between BYD, GWM and MG. So mostly manufactured in China, with Thailand, India and UK featuring. It seems most manufacturers can't or won't get affordable vehicles on the market, and discovering that there is only so much luxury vehicle market to go around.
  - mambru 3y ago
    MG is not from UK anymore
toast0 3y ago
> Chevy dealers do everything they can to avoid selling Bolts but they're still months away from having stock. Why should they sell a Bolt if they don't have it? When you sell the car before it's made, you have to do a lot of customer handholding and the customer holds the dealer responsible when the car doesn't arrive on time. Much better to sell them something that's already on the lot, or at least on a truck on the way.
- numpad0 3y ago
  It's almost as if, EVs are costly/cash negative to manufacture, and customers want cars that inflict more loss to the manufacturer. Such deals are of course great to buyers.
  - user_7832 3y ago
    Is it that, or is it that EVs being sold are almost all in the mid/luxury segment which has a limited market to begin with? This is probably more specifically a US thing but the preference for large cars = luxury doesn't appear to be doing any favours to the market.

api 3y ago

So what we are really seeing here is an industry that desperately wants customers not to want certain things, such as affordable ultra low maintenance cheap to operate EVs. But customers want these things and will search them out. Sounds like a recipe for us to lose our auto industry to China. The instant some upstart puts a $20k simple super reliable EV on the market it’s over, and we will deserve it. Of course some subset will keep buying the biggest F-9000 Super Chungus they can find while complaining about the price of gas, so maybe that will keep legacy auto alive.

user_named 3y ago
BYD has a new EV for 70k rmb, around $10k. And another one for around $13k, and so on. So it's not a one off. Cars are getting massively cheaper. I don't see why you'd pay $50k for one.
- viraptor 3y ago
  BYD is interesting. I've not seen them advertising as much as other brands. Just spotted one being shown in a shopping centre about a year ago, then they start popping up all over the place. I expect to see a huge number of them soon - they're permanently out of stock the whole time as far as I can tell. They provide the non-luxury thing that most people want/can afford and will make a killing while other manufacturers fumble around.
  - theodric 3y ago
    BYD and ORA (Great Wall) are both operating in Ireland. I've sat in them, not driven, but they seem fairly well-put-together on the surface. The little ORA Funky Cat city car is adorable, though not exactly cheap as chips at €32000 for the entry-level model. After Mozilla's damning recent analysis of the major car brands' user privacy [1], however, I'd be very curious to know what data the Chinese EVs are sending back, and to whom. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37404413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37404413
- bdcravens 3y ago
  Those cheapest EVs are tiny hatchbacks that really aren't popular here, and they use batteries that charge much slower. The US market has an expectation of bigger is better, and even "economy" cars have features on them you'd only find on luxury cars not that long ago. Pushing back against that culture is a challenge.
  - api 3y ago
    The US market will buy small cars but US small is bigger than Asia or Europe small. A Bolt or Nissan Leaf with NACS fast charge and a bit better looks will sell pretty well. The Tesla model 3 sells.
    - bdcravens 3y ago
      I agree. I just don't think we'll see cars like BYD is selling. I'd love to see one of the typical 4-door 4-cylinder "economy" cars like the Sentra, Corolla, or Civic with an EV transmission.
      - api 3y ago
        That’s why I quoted $20k not $10k. The floor is higher in the US market. But people definitely will buy something like an improved Leaf or Bolt.
- momirlan 3y ago
  The main point is not the price though, it's the infrastructure and the fast obsolescence of batteries. There are no batteries currently that will last the life of a car, so what do you do when they quit ? Replace them, for what price ? I might get an EV in 10 years or so, when there is a clear vision for infrastructure and battery technology.
  - stubish 3y ago
    I think it is price. Here I see cars with batteries that last well enough for 10+ years, and I'm confident that the price will drop over time if I keep one long enough to actually want to replace it. Along with all the other parts that wear out. Over here I think new car buyers won't tend to drive their cars into the ground, with cars on the road after 20 years generally having been purchased second hand. I don't know how the second hand market or resale value of EVs will look.
BestGuess 3y ago
Yeah you see that a lot when all of a sudden every single one in the US market yanks out every affordable option all at the same time or "mysteriously" makes them impossible to buy but somehow that isn't collusion or anything. Then these same lying fuckers in suits declare americans "don't want" those options they conspired to make as difficult as possible to get in the first place. You saw the same thing with microcars or anything especially affordable the past couple years. They only want to sell giant gas guzzling insanely expensive XXL crap and are doing their best to keep affordable shit off the market meanwhile it all sells just fine everywhere else. It's obvious how rigged the whole thing is same with real estate and "automatic price adjustments" that coincidentally biases things in favor of landlords, same for other software that biases things in favor of other colluding fucks like the auto industry so they merely "coincidentally" conspire. It's all total bullshit. What pisses me off is the fact people somehow think an industry agreeing to use algorithms that only go in their favor and most of all if they all use those algorithms together doesn't count as collusion.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >They only want to sell giant gas guzzling insanely expensive XXL crap AI generated Chevy Goliath Ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI7Tq6sRxE4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI7Tq6sRxE4
  - BestGuess 3y ago
    That's too real and gosh dang horrifyin
  - hindsightbias 3y ago
    Simpsons did it first https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI_Jl5WFQkA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI_Jl5WFQkA
    - morkalork 3y ago
      https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1613599573955444751 https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1613599573955444751
stubish 3y ago
In Australia, the vast majority of EV models on the market are luxury vehicles. You can count on one hand the number of vehicles in the 'midrange' price point (~$AUD 50k is my yardstick), and absolutely nothing anyone considers cheap. Budget conscious purchasers get to choose between BYD, GWM and MG. So mostly manufactured in China, with Thailand, India and UK featuring. It seems most manufacturers can't or won't get affordable vehicles on the market, and discovering that there is only so much luxury vehicle market to go around.
- mambru 3y ago
  MG is not from UK anymore

toast0 3y ago

> Chevy dealers do everything they can to avoid selling Bolts but they're still months away from having stock. Why should they sell a Bolt if they don't have it? When you sell the car before it's made, you have to do a lot of customer handholding and the customer holds the dealer responsible when the car doesn't arrive on time. Much better to sell them something that's already on the lot, or at least on a truck on the way.

numpad0 3y ago
It's almost as if, EVs are costly/cash negative to manufacture, and customers want cars that inflict more loss to the manufacturer. Such deals are of course great to buyers.
- user_7832 3y ago
  Is it that, or is it that EVs being sold are almost all in the mid/luxury segment which has a limited market to begin with? This is probably more specifically a US thing but the preference for large cars = luxury doesn't appear to be doing any favours to the market.