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Why Do Young Americans Support Hamas? Look at TikTok

27 points by ca98am79 3y ago

COOL_DUDE_2112 3y ago
[flagged]
bell-cot 3y ago
Before getting too obsessed over the CPP's giant evil TikTok poisoning young American minds, it might be worth considering Che Guevara - who is a "ubiquitous countercultural symbol" [Wikipedia] and yet had a fairly atrocious record on human rights. Both of which predate the existence of the web, if not the internet itself.
- ironyman 3y ago
  The comments section on tiktok is mental. Its 100% without exception pro hamas. You have a lot of debate in other places but on there its a complete consensus in support of Hamas.
  - BrianHenryIE 3y ago
    It's mostly pro-Palestine. Some pro-Israel. It's disingenuous to imply people who are opposed to genocide support the aims of Hamas. You're conflating the two because you need to distort the evil of what is happening. Hamas were the bad guys on October 7, Israel have been the bad guys every day since, the children in Gaza were never the bad guys.
    - baggy_trough 3y ago
      Could you give a definition of genocide that encompasses what Israel is doing in Gaza?
      - BrianHenryIE 3y ago
        You're deluded if you think this colonial expansion is anything other than genocide. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-re...
        baggy_trough 3y ago
        How do you define genocide?
        BrianHenryIE 3y ago
        I'll revisit this in a year. And you'll eat your words. You should be ashamed.
        baggy_trough 3y ago
        Ashamed of asking you to define a term?
- robomartin 3y ago
  Yeah, I have never understood the Che Guevara thing. Every time I see someone wearing a t-shirt with his face the first thing I think is “This person is advertising their ignorance”. It’s like walking around wearing a Bin Laden or “I Love Hamas” shirt. My take on it has always been that this is the result of allowing crazy fucks to become professors at universities. It is now beyond obvious just how damaging this has been. We have allowed our youth to be indoctrinated by crazy idiots for decades. Given this context nothing I see today surprises me. The damage will take decades to repair.
  - bell-cot 3y ago
    > My take on it has always been that this is the result of allowing crazy fucks to become professors at universities. I'm thinking that plenty of younger people - especially ones frustrated or angry at the seemingly-poor prospects which the existing social order seemed to offer for their futures - were biased in favor of violent rebels long before there were such things as "professors" or "universities". Consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus
  - enterprise_cog 3y ago
    You call people idiots in a reply agreeing with a post that is repeating lies about Che. Maybe you should actually learn about it too. Rather than calling people who disagree with your view of history crazy or idiotic.
    - robomartin 3y ago
      The guy was a murderer. A psychopathic monster. I am not calling “people” idiots. Get it right. I am calling people indoctrinated into believing Che was anything less than a monster idiots. Ask cubans what they think of someone wearing a Che t-shirt. Better yet, if you are so confident that you know the truth, go get yourself a bright Che t-shirt and walk around Little Havanna for a day. And then, if you are still able to walk, jump over to Cuba and do the same. Good luck. The only thing worse I can imagine would be a Hitler shirt or a communist shirt of some kind (Over 60 million people killed).
- teachrdan 3y ago
  Che Guevara also fought (American) imperialism in Latin America, including overthrowing the US's puppet regime in Cuba, and getting killed while doing the same in Bolivia. It seems like you sincerely can't understand why he'd be seen as heroic. Here's an account of his last moments. For context, the Bolivian government had captured Guevera, but wanted to make it look like he'd been killed in a firefight, rather than executed. -- A few minutes later, Sergeant Terán entered the hut to shoot him, whereupon Guevara reportedly stood up and spoke to Terán what were his last words: "I know you've come to kill me. Shoot, coward! You are only going to kill a man!" Terán hesitated, then pointed his self-loading M2 carbine at Guevara and opened fire, hitting him in the arms and legs. Then, as Guevara writhed on the ground, apparently biting one of his wrists to avoid crying out, Terán fired another burst, fatally wounding him in the chest. Guevara was pronounced dead at 1:10 PM local time according to Rodríguez. In all, Guevara was shot nine times by Terán. This included five times in his legs, once in the right shoulder and arm, and once in the chest and throat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara#Execution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara#Execution
  - teachrdan 3y ago
    It's a bit funny this comment has already been downvoted to negative points. I'm simply responding to OP with neutral language and valid references. The question is, "Why is he considered a counterculture hero?" The answer, in part, is that he spent his young life fighting imperialism and died a martyr's death. Honest question: Is there any answer to OP's question that would not get downvoted? Is my original answer being downvoted because it's articulated poorly, or because people don't like the answer?
    - yorwba 3y ago
      I downvoted you because you failed to engage with the content of the comment you attached your reply to and instead launched into a tangent on an irrelevant detail.
      - teachrdan 3y ago
        Here's the comment by OP that I am trying to engage with: > it might be worth considering Che Guevara - who is a "ubiquitous countercultural symbol" [Wikipedia] and yet had a fairly atrocious record on human rights My reply to that comment is an attempt to explain why Guevara became a "ubiquitous countercultural symbol" -- because of the substance of his life's work and his tragic death. Is that a tangent, or an irrelevant detail?
flerchin 3y ago
Young Americans have always been anti-war. The boomers were not pro VietCong, and Gen X was not pro Saddam Hussein. Zoomers are not pro Hamas. All were/are against war. "War is where the young and stupid are tricked by the old and bitter into killing eachother." - Nico Belic
- invalidname 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - flerchin 3y ago
    Misses the point. "Why do young Americans support Hamas?" They don't. I understand that it's easier for you to whatabout a hundred other things than deal with the nuances of an antiwar position.
    - invalidname 3y ago
      Skipped the fact that I asked are they against Ukraine fighting for its freedom? I think this is about Israel and its admittedly terrible policies in the west bank. I don't think this is about war in general since US soldiers aren't involved in any significant way.
      - flerchin 3y ago
        Support for Ukraine is weakest among the younger cohorts, but still strong. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1336308/public-opinion-action-ukraine-us-age/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1336308/public-opinion-a...
  - chucksta 3y ago
    Maybe not Nazis, at the start of WW2 a lot of (~%50) Americans didn't want anything to do with it. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/great-debate https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/great-debate
anon25783 3y ago
[flagged]
- zeroCalories 3y ago
  What does 51 percent of people 18-25 thinking Hamas' violence is justified mean to you?
  - jamil7 3y ago
    Check the linked poll, it's been reworded to intentionally stir people up.
    - zeroCalories 3y ago
      It's not meaningfully different. Even if you disagree with the nuances, these zoomers still trend in that direction, with a good percentage not even believing that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
  - anon25783 3y ago
    It means you're trying to bait me with a provocative statistic. Two can play at that game. What does it mean to you that Israel is bombing a population which comprises over 40% children under the age of 14[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine#Demographics_of_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_P...
    - zeroCalories 3y ago
      I'm not trying to bait you. I'm asking why you would claim that "we" don't support Hamas, when it seems as if "we" do. But to answer your question, it seems like an unfortunate necessity, which is entirely Hamas' fault.
      - anon25783 3y ago
        It's really wild how you didn't even try to deny what I said. Somehow, raining bombs on a civilian population that is half children and teenagers is an "unfortunate necessity". For all the heated rhetoric and media interviews and videos of flaming wreckage I've seen thus far, nothing has given me such a crystal-clear sense that those who defend Israel's actions in Gaza do not view Palestinians as human beings. As for why I dispute the claim that 51% of us 18-to-25-year-old Americans support Hamas? Great question. Why indeed should I bother to dispute anything at all with someone who openly supports collective punishment? Clearly, if you don't give a shred of consideration to the Geneva Convention, it's stupid of me to act like you'd have any greater respect for me. What do I know other than dozens of other people my age?
underseacables 3y ago
I think there's a strong line between supporting the Palestinian cause and supporting Hamas. If young Americans are actually supporting Hamas, then I think they are ignorant of history or living in a dreamland. Hamas would cut off their heads too.
- zeroCalories 3y ago
  I think people are naive about the distinction. Not everyone is Japan or Germany that will flip sides over night as national interests change, some people are closer to Afghans. I wonder which one Palestine is?
AdmiralAsshat 3y ago
> According to a Harvard/Harris poll, 51 percent of Americans ages 18–24 believe Hamas was justified in its brutal terrorist attacks on innocent Israeli citizens on October 7. This was the prompt, from the survey: > Do you think the Hamas killing of 1200 Israeli civilians on Israel can be justified by the grievances of Palestinians or is it not justified? Note the distinction here. Can be. Not is. The question from the poll is garbage to begin with, IMO, because it's basically the only question anywhere in the poll that even deigns to fathom the idea that maybe Palestinians are suffering as part of the conflict. But the author is intentionally twisting meaning of the question to turn it into "Young people support terrorism because TikTok!"
- invalidname 3y ago
  Sorry, I don't see that distinction... Maybe his end result is wrong but "can be" for a brutal murder of 1,300 by now including pretty horrific stuff: https://x.com/EylonALevy/status/1719667140209316316?s=20 https://x.com/EylonALevy/status/1719667140209316316?s=20 Never. If you're response is anything other than "under no circumstances", then there's a serious problem there...
  - AdmiralAsshat 3y ago
    > Never. If you're response is anything other than "under no circumstances", then there's a serious problem there... Plenty of people believe 9/11 was a heinous act, but are willing to recognize that there were factors that caused it to happen (not just, "Al-Qaeda attacked the US because they hate OUR FREEDOM!"), and can believe that the US's response to completely level Afghanistan and Iraq was far in excess of the provocation. My point being, once again, to look at the poll, and see that this is the only question anywhere in the poll where "grievances of Palestinians" is mentioned. If you happen to be someone who is sympathetic to their plight, answering "Yes" to this question is the closest you can get to on this. Every other question (including this one) is an intentionally binary choice of "I support Israel in 100% of everything they do" or "I support Hamas and love terrorism".
    - 3y ago
jihadjihad 3y ago
The specific question in the poll: "Do you think the Hamas killing of 1200 Israeli civilians on Israel can be justified by the grievances of Palestinians or is it not justified?" [0, p. 43] 0: https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP...
justinpombrio 3y ago
Looking at the poll https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP... Here are two questions on it: > Do you think the Hamas killing of 1200 Israeli civilians on Israel can be justified by the grievances of Palestinians or is it not justified? [call this question "Justified"] Overall, 24% say "yes" to this. Among ages 18-24, "51%" say yes! > Do you think that the attacks on Jews were genocidal in nature or not genocidal? [call this question "Genocidal"] Overall, 75% say "yes" to this. Among ages 18-24, 62% say yes. What on Earth is going on here? There's at least a 13% overlap of young people saying that the Hamas attack was both Genocidal and Justified.
- yorwba 3y ago
  It's 18-24 year-old people (or people claiming to be 18-24 years old) answering survey questions under who knows what circumstances. A large fraction is likely intentionally trolling the pollsters to rile up oldsters, and some might be more like 13 and don't quite understand the questions. I think the funniest example is this pair of questions: There was an explosion at a Gaza hospital. Do you think the explosion was caused by an Israeli airstrike or by a terrorist rocket that went off course? 45% say "Caused by Israeli airstrike", 55% say "Terrorist rocket that went off course" But then... Given that US intelligence and Israeli intelligence have said and shown evidence that the hospital explosion was caused by an off-course terrorist rocket do you think the explosion was caused by an Israeli airstrike or by a terrorist rocket that went off 61% say "Caused by Israeli airstrike", 39% say "Terrorist rocket that went off course" Mentioning the involvement of intelligence services makes people less likely to agree with their explanation! (This seems to affect age groups up to 44 to some degree.)
- seba_dos1 3y ago
  I guess a genocidial answer to a genocide may be considered "justified" by some.
slibhb 3y ago
[flagged]
Animats 3y ago
Current death toll seems to be about 1,400 Israelis, 8,000 Gazans.[1] The second number is climbing, but the first isn't. That's from The Economist, not TikTok. They're somewhat skeptical of the numbers, but the total from Gaza has at least 6,400 names attached. This is a religious war, and every time the US gets into someone else's religious war, it doesn't end well. The article is by a Republican senator. [1] https://archive.ph/4BdeY https://archive.ph/4BdeY
- oliwarner 3y ago
  But the US has been involved here since 1948. I'm not trying to score points on a technicality, they actively support Israel. With rising sympathies for Palestinians, I do wonder how much longer this support will continue.
  - Animats 3y ago
    > I do wonder how much longer this support will continue. Good question. Probably depends on who comes after Netanyahu.
- sndman 3y ago
  It's not a religious war. It's an anti-colonial struggle. An understanding of events of October 7 starts with an understanding of the historical context of Palestine and Israel: most of the coverage of the events of October 7 deal with the symptoms of the violence and not the source. An understanding of the source of the violence, by no means justified, is needed. This history starts with an understanding of Zionism, an ideology that is racist, not in its origin, but in the way it manifested itself in the land of Mandatory Palestine. And this racism is part of the settler colonial movement where the logic of the elimination of the Native was activated. These elimination policies were in the DNA of the Zionist encounters with the Natives of Palestine in the late 19th century. They wanted as much of the land of Palestine as possible with as few of the Palestinians as possible. There was always the demographic dimension as well as the geographic dimension in the earliest policies of the Zionist movement and into what later became Israel. The more space the Zionists had, the less space the indigenous people had. These elimination policies could take different forms: genocide, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, and they take different forms in different places. What happened in Gaza cannot be taken out of this context of Zionists/Israeli elimination and the ethnic cleansing of half of the population of Palestine that took place in 1947-1949 and the destruction of over 500 villages. The ruins of some of these same destroyed villages where the attackers originated from, and were next to the kibbutzim that were attacked. None of this justifies the violence that took place on October 7 but is needed to understand the source of the violence. The source of this violence is the racist ideology, of a racist Zionist ideology that needs to eliminate the Native. Zionism is not unique in this regard and is similar to other European colonial settler movements that desired to eliminate the native populations on the land they colonized.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bigfryo 3y ago
Western elites hate the idea of losing their monopoly on what idea is going to the brains of young people
tamimio 3y ago
The answer is pretty straightforward, they don’t watch TV, people are underestimating the power of brainwashing done by MSM, all info were directly or indirectly controlled, including social media, up until recently, young ones don’t wake up and start the day by reading a newspaper like how boomers did, they have their own communication channels, tiktok is one, but not the only one, there are plenty that is less controlled including video games like Roblox/minecraft, a video like the one below for example will never get shared in any MSM but you can easily find it in tiktok and such. https://files.catbox.moe/i1khdh.mp4 https://files.catbox.moe/i1khdh.mp4
dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
It's not so much that they support Hamas as are against killing of Palestinians. But so far nobody has a good idea on how to ensure peace.

27 points by ca98am79 3y ago

[flagged]

Before getting too obsessed over the CPP's giant evil TikTok poisoning young American minds, it might be worth considering Che Guevara - who is a "ubiquitous countercultural symbol" [Wikipedia] and yet had a fairly atrocious record on human rights. Both of which predate the existence of the web, if not the internet itself.

ironyman 3y ago
The comments section on tiktok is mental. Its 100% without exception pro hamas. You have a lot of debate in other places but on there its a complete consensus in support of Hamas.
- BrianHenryIE 3y ago
  It's mostly pro-Palestine. Some pro-Israel. It's disingenuous to imply people who are opposed to genocide support the aims of Hamas. You're conflating the two because you need to distort the evil of what is happening. Hamas were the bad guys on October 7, Israel have been the bad guys every day since, the children in Gaza were never the bad guys.
  - baggy_trough 3y ago
    Could you give a definition of genocide that encompasses what Israel is doing in Gaza?
    - BrianHenryIE 3y ago
      You're deluded if you think this colonial expansion is anything other than genocide. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-re...
      - baggy_trough 3y ago
        How do you define genocide?
        BrianHenryIE 3y ago
        I'll revisit this in a year. And you'll eat your words. You should be ashamed.
        baggy_trough 3y ago
        Ashamed of asking you to define a term?
robomartin 3y ago
Yeah, I have never understood the Che Guevara thing. Every time I see someone wearing a t-shirt with his face the first thing I think is “This person is advertising their ignorance”. It’s like walking around wearing a Bin Laden or “I Love Hamas” shirt. My take on it has always been that this is the result of allowing crazy fucks to become professors at universities. It is now beyond obvious just how damaging this has been. We have allowed our youth to be indoctrinated by crazy idiots for decades. Given this context nothing I see today surprises me. The damage will take decades to repair.
- bell-cot 3y ago
  > My take on it has always been that this is the result of allowing crazy fucks to become professors at universities. I'm thinking that plenty of younger people - especially ones frustrated or angry at the seemingly-poor prospects which the existing social order seemed to offer for their futures - were biased in favor of violent rebels long before there were such things as "professors" or "universities". Consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus
- enterprise_cog 3y ago
  You call people idiots in a reply agreeing with a post that is repeating lies about Che. Maybe you should actually learn about it too. Rather than calling people who disagree with your view of history crazy or idiotic.
  - robomartin 3y ago
    The guy was a murderer. A psychopathic monster. I am not calling “people” idiots. Get it right. I am calling people indoctrinated into believing Che was anything less than a monster idiots. Ask cubans what they think of someone wearing a Che t-shirt. Better yet, if you are so confident that you know the truth, go get yourself a bright Che t-shirt and walk around Little Havanna for a day. And then, if you are still able to walk, jump over to Cuba and do the same. Good luck. The only thing worse I can imagine would be a Hitler shirt or a communist shirt of some kind (Over 60 million people killed).
teachrdan 3y ago
Che Guevara also fought (American) imperialism in Latin America, including overthrowing the US's puppet regime in Cuba, and getting killed while doing the same in Bolivia. It seems like you sincerely can't understand why he'd be seen as heroic. Here's an account of his last moments. For context, the Bolivian government had captured Guevera, but wanted to make it look like he'd been killed in a firefight, rather than executed. -- A few minutes later, Sergeant Terán entered the hut to shoot him, whereupon Guevara reportedly stood up and spoke to Terán what were his last words: "I know you've come to kill me. Shoot, coward! You are only going to kill a man!" Terán hesitated, then pointed his self-loading M2 carbine at Guevara and opened fire, hitting him in the arms and legs. Then, as Guevara writhed on the ground, apparently biting one of his wrists to avoid crying out, Terán fired another burst, fatally wounding him in the chest. Guevara was pronounced dead at 1:10 PM local time according to Rodríguez. In all, Guevara was shot nine times by Terán. This included five times in his legs, once in the right shoulder and arm, and once in the chest and throat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara#Execution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara#Execution
- teachrdan 3y ago
  It's a bit funny this comment has already been downvoted to negative points. I'm simply responding to OP with neutral language and valid references. The question is, "Why is he considered a counterculture hero?" The answer, in part, is that he spent his young life fighting imperialism and died a martyr's death. Honest question: Is there any answer to OP's question that would not get downvoted? Is my original answer being downvoted because it's articulated poorly, or because people don't like the answer?
  - yorwba 3y ago
    I downvoted you because you failed to engage with the content of the comment you attached your reply to and instead launched into a tangent on an irrelevant detail.
    - teachrdan 3y ago
      Here's the comment by OP that I am trying to engage with: > it might be worth considering Che Guevara - who is a "ubiquitous countercultural symbol" [Wikipedia] and yet had a fairly atrocious record on human rights My reply to that comment is an attempt to explain why Guevara became a "ubiquitous countercultural symbol" -- because of the substance of his life's work and his tragic death. Is that a tangent, or an irrelevant detail?

flerchin 3y ago

Young Americans have always been anti-war. The boomers were not pro VietCong, and Gen X was not pro Saddam Hussein. Zoomers are not pro Hamas. All were/are against war. "War is where the young and stupid are tricked by the old and bitter into killing eachother." - Nico Belic

invalidname 3y ago
[flagged]
- flerchin 3y ago
  Misses the point. "Why do young Americans support Hamas?" They don't. I understand that it's easier for you to whatabout a hundred other things than deal with the nuances of an antiwar position.
  - invalidname 3y ago
    Skipped the fact that I asked are they against Ukraine fighting for its freedom? I think this is about Israel and its admittedly terrible policies in the west bank. I don't think this is about war in general since US soldiers aren't involved in any significant way.
    - flerchin 3y ago
      Support for Ukraine is weakest among the younger cohorts, but still strong. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1336308/public-opinion-action-ukraine-us-age/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1336308/public-opinion-a...
- chucksta 3y ago
  Maybe not Nazis, at the start of WW2 a lot of (~%50) Americans didn't want anything to do with it. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/great-debate https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/great-debate

anon25783 3y ago

[flagged]

zeroCalories 3y ago
What does 51 percent of people 18-25 thinking Hamas' violence is justified mean to you?
- jamil7 3y ago
  Check the linked poll, it's been reworded to intentionally stir people up.
  - zeroCalories 3y ago
    It's not meaningfully different. Even if you disagree with the nuances, these zoomers still trend in that direction, with a good percentage not even believing that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
- anon25783 3y ago
  It means you're trying to bait me with a provocative statistic. Two can play at that game. What does it mean to you that Israel is bombing a population which comprises over 40% children under the age of 14[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine#Demographics_of_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_P...
  - zeroCalories 3y ago
    I'm not trying to bait you. I'm asking why you would claim that "we" don't support Hamas, when it seems as if "we" do. But to answer your question, it seems like an unfortunate necessity, which is entirely Hamas' fault.
    - anon25783 3y ago
      It's really wild how you didn't even try to deny what I said. Somehow, raining bombs on a civilian population that is half children and teenagers is an "unfortunate necessity". For all the heated rhetoric and media interviews and videos of flaming wreckage I've seen thus far, nothing has given me such a crystal-clear sense that those who defend Israel's actions in Gaza do not view Palestinians as human beings. As for why I dispute the claim that 51% of us 18-to-25-year-old Americans support Hamas? Great question. Why indeed should I bother to dispute anything at all with someone who openly supports collective punishment? Clearly, if you don't give a shred of consideration to the Geneva Convention, it's stupid of me to act like you'd have any greater respect for me. What do I know other than dozens of other people my age?

underseacables 3y ago

I think there's a strong line between supporting the Palestinian cause and supporting Hamas. If young Americans are actually supporting Hamas, then I think they are ignorant of history or living in a dreamland. Hamas would cut off their heads too.

zeroCalories 3y ago
I think people are naive about the distinction. Not everyone is Japan or Germany that will flip sides over night as national interests change, some people are closer to Afghans. I wonder which one Palestine is?

AdmiralAsshat 3y ago

> According to a Harvard/Harris poll, 51 percent of Americans ages 18–24 believe Hamas was justified in its brutal terrorist attacks on innocent Israeli citizens on October 7. This was the prompt, from the survey: > Do you think the Hamas killing of 1200 Israeli civilians on Israel can be justified by the grievances of Palestinians or is it not justified? Note the distinction here. Can be. Not is. The question from the poll is garbage to begin with, IMO, because it's basically the only question anywhere in the poll that even deigns to fathom the idea that maybe Palestinians are suffering as part of the conflict. But the author is intentionally twisting meaning of the question to turn it into "Young people support terrorism because TikTok!"

invalidname 3y ago
Sorry, I don't see that distinction... Maybe his end result is wrong but "can be" for a brutal murder of 1,300 by now including pretty horrific stuff: https://x.com/EylonALevy/status/1719667140209316316?s=20 https://x.com/EylonALevy/status/1719667140209316316?s=20 Never. If you're response is anything other than "under no circumstances", then there's a serious problem there...
- AdmiralAsshat 3y ago
  > Never. If you're response is anything other than "under no circumstances", then there's a serious problem there... Plenty of people believe 9/11 was a heinous act, but are willing to recognize that there were factors that caused it to happen (not just, "Al-Qaeda attacked the US because they hate OUR FREEDOM!"), and can believe that the US's response to completely level Afghanistan and Iraq was far in excess of the provocation. My point being, once again, to look at the poll, and see that this is the only question anywhere in the poll where "grievances of Palestinians" is mentioned. If you happen to be someone who is sympathetic to their plight, answering "Yes" to this question is the closest you can get to on this. Every other question (including this one) is an intentionally binary choice of "I support Israel in 100% of everything they do" or "I support Hamas and love terrorism".
  - 3y ago

jihadjihad 3y ago

The specific question in the poll: "Do you think the Hamas killing of 1200 Israeli civilians on Israel can be justified by the grievances of Palestinians or is it not justified?" [0, p. 43] 0: https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP...

justinpombrio 3y ago

Looking at the poll https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP... Here are two questions on it: > Do you think the Hamas killing of 1200 Israeli civilians on Israel can be justified by the grievances of Palestinians or is it not justified? [call this question "Justified"] Overall, 24% say "yes" to this. Among ages 18-24, "51%" say yes! > Do you think that the attacks on Jews were genocidal in nature or not genocidal? [call this question "Genocidal"] Overall, 75% say "yes" to this. Among ages 18-24, 62% say yes. What on Earth is going on here? There's at least a 13% overlap of young people saying that the Hamas attack was both Genocidal and Justified.

yorwba 3y ago
It's 18-24 year-old people (or people claiming to be 18-24 years old) answering survey questions under who knows what circumstances. A large fraction is likely intentionally trolling the pollsters to rile up oldsters, and some might be more like 13 and don't quite understand the questions. I think the funniest example is this pair of questions: There was an explosion at a Gaza hospital. Do you think the explosion was caused by an Israeli airstrike or by a terrorist rocket that went off course? 45% say "Caused by Israeli airstrike", 55% say "Terrorist rocket that went off course" But then... Given that US intelligence and Israeli intelligence have said and shown evidence that the hospital explosion was caused by an off-course terrorist rocket do you think the explosion was caused by an Israeli airstrike or by a terrorist rocket that went off 61% say "Caused by Israeli airstrike", 39% say "Terrorist rocket that went off course" Mentioning the involvement of intelligence services makes people less likely to agree with their explanation! (This seems to affect age groups up to 44 to some degree.)
seba_dos1 3y ago
I guess a genocidial answer to a genocide may be considered "justified" by some.

slibhb 3y ago

[flagged]

Animats 3y ago

Current death toll seems to be about 1,400 Israelis, 8,000 Gazans.[1] The second number is climbing, but the first isn't. That's from The Economist, not TikTok. They're somewhat skeptical of the numbers, but the total from Gaza has at least 6,400 names attached. This is a religious war, and every time the US gets into someone else's religious war, it doesn't end well. The article is by a Republican senator. [1] https://archive.ph/4BdeY https://archive.ph/4BdeY

oliwarner 3y ago
But the US has been involved here since 1948. I'm not trying to score points on a technicality, they actively support Israel. With rising sympathies for Palestinians, I do wonder how much longer this support will continue.
- Animats 3y ago
  > I do wonder how much longer this support will continue. Good question. Probably depends on who comes after Netanyahu.
sndman 3y ago
It's not a religious war. It's an anti-colonial struggle. An understanding of events of October 7 starts with an understanding of the historical context of Palestine and Israel: most of the coverage of the events of October 7 deal with the symptoms of the violence and not the source. An understanding of the source of the violence, by no means justified, is needed. This history starts with an understanding of Zionism, an ideology that is racist, not in its origin, but in the way it manifested itself in the land of Mandatory Palestine. And this racism is part of the settler colonial movement where the logic of the elimination of the Native was activated. These elimination policies were in the DNA of the Zionist encounters with the Natives of Palestine in the late 19th century. They wanted as much of the land of Palestine as possible with as few of the Palestinians as possible. There was always the demographic dimension as well as the geographic dimension in the earliest policies of the Zionist movement and into what later became Israel. The more space the Zionists had, the less space the indigenous people had. These elimination policies could take different forms: genocide, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, and they take different forms in different places. What happened in Gaza cannot be taken out of this context of Zionists/Israeli elimination and the ethnic cleansing of half of the population of Palestine that took place in 1947-1949 and the destruction of over 500 villages. The ruins of some of these same destroyed villages where the attackers originated from, and were next to the kibbutzim that were attacked. None of this justifies the violence that took place on October 7 but is needed to understand the source of the violence. The source of this violence is the racist ideology, of a racist Zionist ideology that needs to eliminate the Native. Zionism is not unique in this regard and is similar to other European colonial settler movements that desired to eliminate the native populations on the land they colonized.

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bigfryo 3y ago

Western elites hate the idea of losing their monopoly on what idea is going to the brains of young people

tamimio 3y ago

The answer is pretty straightforward, they don’t watch TV, people are underestimating the power of brainwashing done by MSM, all info were directly or indirectly controlled, including social media, up until recently, young ones don’t wake up and start the day by reading a newspaper like how boomers did, they have their own communication channels, tiktok is one, but not the only one, there are plenty that is less controlled including video games like Roblox/minecraft, a video like the one below for example will never get shared in any MSM but you can easily find it in tiktok and such. https://files.catbox.moe/i1khdh.mp4 https://files.catbox.moe/i1khdh.mp4

dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago

It's not so much that they support Hamas as are against killing of Palestinians. But so far nobody has a good idea on how to ensure peace.