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> Take this scenario. You have an infant room with 8 kids and have 2 teachers in a LCOL area. Tuition is 325/week. You’re pulling these numbers out of your ass

> Take this scenario. You have an infant room with 8 kids and have 2 teachers in a LCOL area. Tuition is 325/week. You’re pulling these numbers out of your ass, to be frank. I live in a Low-Cost of Living Area (rural South Carolina, near Clemson) and we pay $160 per week for care for a good facility. Formerly, in a now High-Cost area (Charleston) we paid about $200 per week in 2020 with that rising to about $225 for an ok facility. If you wanted to pay $325 you’d have your pick of the litter of high-end facilities with nice add-ons like Spanish-immersion and music education. For further context, my wife currently makes $15 per hour as a simple line cook in order to have a 9-5 style schedule, and covers daycare, vehicle expenses, and groceries on her paycheck. If we had a second child added we would be about break-even on her at that pay grade. For further context, her 9-5 prep-cook pay was $20 per hour at her Charleston employer and prior to was making 55k salaried with benefits and PTO as a sous chef. The issue we faced as a family was lack of availability at most facilities. We spent a year on a waiting list to get accepted in. My wife couldn’t work even if she wanted to the first year. In the city, that might have stretched further.

rfrey 3y ago
I believe you, but how do the sums work? In my jurisdiction - a notoriously right-wing part of Canada - the staff:kid ratio is 1:4 for little guys, 6 for toddlers, and 8 for 4 years +. Call it 6 average. A group of 6 kids will bring in $960/week. At a minimum wage of $15/hour, a week's wages is $600 - call it $800 for the employer after expenses. That leaves roughly $160 excess funds per cohort. Say there are 5 cohorts in a daycare - 40 kids. $800 excess funds per week or ~$3500 per month. Out of that comes rent, insurance, supplies, cleaning, utilities, and probably property taxes and maintenance on a typical triple-net lease. Seems like a losing proposition.
mberning 3y ago
I don’t think they are really out of line for their estimate. I live in a mid size city in the midwest and we have paid $50-$100 per day depending on the quality of the facility. I’m sure a weekly or monthly rate could knock that down a bit, but it’s still quite expensive.
francisofascii 3y ago
In my limited experience, daycare tuition in high cost of living areas is insane. Not sure why. You basically have to find some mom by word of mouth, running a daycare out of her house, to pay anything reasonable.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  > In my limited experience, daycare tuition in high cost of living areas is insane. Not sure why. You know why. Because labor costs are "insane". Not insane from the perspective of the low-wage earner making 60k in NYC, but insane for the 4 families that are paying their salary. That's $15k per family per year. But that's not the final cost, they then have to cover a share of center overheard + some margin which easily hits 25 or 30k.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    that's not a very satisfying answer. The ones doing labor aren't benefitting, and a day care cares for more than 4 kids. so where's all the money going? Rent? So tiring hearing all these arguments in politics thinking of the kids, and meanwhile the kids' facilities are screwed over the worst. and for a high CoL area, it's not even 1200 a month. It's more like 2500-3000. Literally a 2nd apartment's worth of rent. Unless things went down over the pandemic.
D13Fd 3y ago
Where I am in the US northeast, the cheapest licensed daycares are around $360/wk. If you want the nice daycare you are looking at more like $400+. >For further context, my wife currently makes $15 per hour as a simple line cook in order to have a 9-5 style schedule, and covers daycare, vehicle expenses, and groceries on her paycheck. If we had a second child added we would be about break-even on her at that pay grade. Do you pay no taxes? Because 35*15=$525/wk. After state, local, and federal taxes (not to mention property taxes) that should be about $367.50. Minus the $225 for daycare, that leaves $142. Assuming only a single car and around $92/wk in vehicle expenses ($400/mo -- including car payment, maintenance, and gas), that leaves $50/wk for groceries for three people. That seems extremely tight for a high cost of living area. And I have no idea how you could break even with another $225/wk daycare payment. Even at a 0% tax rate, that would leave just $75 per week for all groceries and vehicle costs for three people.
- RexM 3y ago
  The post says they currently pay $160/wk, not $225 (that was before when they lived in Charleston.)
nonethewiser 3y ago
> You’re pulling these numbers out of your ass, to be frank. I am not. LCOL here and 325 is the low end. The ratio by law is 1:4. I'm using the wage ($15) that I've seen advertised for the job. I did the math on the rest. I think you're being unreasonably critical here. We could instead look at averages but your anecdote isn't more valid than mine. Especially when you fail to mention the SC teacher:child ratio is 1:5 instead of 1:4, and that your kid is presumably not an infant since you've been paying for daycare since 2020 https://www.scchildcare.org/providers/licensing-requirements/ https://www.scchildcare.org/providers/licensing-requirements... > Formerly, in a now High-Cost area (Charleston) we paid about $200 per week in 2020 SC having a higher ratio proves my point that labor is a major factor in price. Additionally, Charleston isnt HCOL (doesnt hold a candle to NYC, SF, etc) and a lot has changed in 3 years. Not just inflation, but the age of your child. You are comparing my scenario (infant) to yours (toddler) which have different costs.
Balgair 3y ago
We're in a medium COL area and at ~$400/wk per kid. Our daycare accepts state subsidies and kids as young as 6 weeks. The wait list was ~15 months long. It's very much the cheapest in the area. Friends about an hour outside of Portland are at ~$500/wk, wait list of ~12 months Friends in Knoxville are at ~800k/wk, wait list of ~2.5 years, and they have access to university daycare. Friends in the Bay Area are at ~350/wk, wait list of ~12 months. Daycare is super local, from what I can see. Still, it's crazy expensive even with state subsidies. And the wait lists are really long. I've not heard of one that was less than a normal human gestation period. NPR had a good story on how daycare is a failed market : https://www.npr.org/2023/02/02/1153931108/day-care-market-expensive-child-care-waitlists https://www.npr.org/2023/02/02/1153931108/day-care-market-ex... TLDL: Anytime you have a wait list, you have screwed up your capitalism somehow. You should be raising prices instead. Daycare is unique as most families cannot possibly afford that 'true' market rate. Think lighthouses. This is why nearly every country on the planet, and some US states, step in to help. The US is the only country that has this problem, and it really is a big problem.

rfrey 3y ago

I believe you, but how do the sums work? In my jurisdiction - a notoriously right-wing part of Canada - the staff:kid ratio is 1:4 for little guys, 6 for toddlers, and 8 for 4 years +. Call it 6 average. A group of 6 kids will bring in $960/week. At a minimum wage of $15/hour, a week's wages is $600 - call it $800 for the employer after expenses. That leaves roughly $160 excess funds per cohort. Say there are 5 cohorts in a daycare - 40 kids. $800 excess funds per week or ~$3500 per month. Out of that comes rent, insurance, supplies, cleaning, utilities, and probably property taxes and maintenance on a typical triple-net lease. Seems like a losing proposition.

mberning 3y ago

I don’t think they are really out of line for their estimate. I live in a mid size city in the midwest and we have paid $50-$100 per day depending on the quality of the facility. I’m sure a weekly or monthly rate could knock that down a bit, but it’s still quite expensive.

francisofascii 3y ago

In my limited experience, daycare tuition in high cost of living areas is insane. Not sure why. You basically have to find some mom by word of mouth, running a daycare out of her house, to pay anything reasonable.

nonethewiser 3y ago
> In my limited experience, daycare tuition in high cost of living areas is insane. Not sure why. You know why. Because labor costs are "insane". Not insane from the perspective of the low-wage earner making 60k in NYC, but insane for the 4 families that are paying their salary. That's $15k per family per year. But that's not the final cost, they then have to cover a share of center overheard + some margin which easily hits 25 or 30k.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  that's not a very satisfying answer. The ones doing labor aren't benefitting, and a day care cares for more than 4 kids. so where's all the money going? Rent? So tiring hearing all these arguments in politics thinking of the kids, and meanwhile the kids' facilities are screwed over the worst. and for a high CoL area, it's not even 1200 a month. It's more like 2500-3000. Literally a 2nd apartment's worth of rent. Unless things went down over the pandemic.

D13Fd 3y ago

Where I am in the US northeast, the cheapest licensed daycares are around $360/wk. If you want the nice daycare you are looking at more like $400+. >For further context, my wife currently makes $15 per hour as a simple line cook in order to have a 9-5 style schedule, and covers daycare, vehicle expenses, and groceries on her paycheck. If we had a second child added we would be about break-even on her at that pay grade. Do you pay no taxes? Because 35*15=$525/wk. After state, local, and federal taxes (not to mention property taxes) that should be about $367.50. Minus the $225 for daycare, that leaves $142. Assuming only a single car and around $92/wk in vehicle expenses ($400/mo -- including car payment, maintenance, and gas), that leaves $50/wk for groceries for three people. That seems extremely tight for a high cost of living area. And I have no idea how you could break even with another $225/wk daycare payment. Even at a 0% tax rate, that would leave just $75 per week for all groceries and vehicle costs for three people.

RexM 3y ago
The post says they currently pay $160/wk, not $225 (that was before when they lived in Charleston.)

nonethewiser 3y ago

> You’re pulling these numbers out of your ass, to be frank. I am not. LCOL here and 325 is the low end. The ratio by law is 1:4. I'm using the wage ($15) that I've seen advertised for the job. I did the math on the rest. I think you're being unreasonably critical here. We could instead look at averages but your anecdote isn't more valid than mine. Especially when you fail to mention the SC teacher:child ratio is 1:5 instead of 1:4, and that your kid is presumably not an infant since you've been paying for daycare since 2020 https://www.scchildcare.org/providers/licensing-requirements/ https://www.scchildcare.org/providers/licensing-requirements... > Formerly, in a now High-Cost area (Charleston) we paid about $200 per week in 2020 SC having a higher ratio proves my point that labor is a major factor in price. Additionally, Charleston isnt HCOL (doesnt hold a candle to NYC, SF, etc) and a lot has changed in 3 years. Not just inflation, but the age of your child. You are comparing my scenario (infant) to yours (toddler) which have different costs.

Balgair 3y ago

We're in a medium COL area and at ~$400/wk per kid. Our daycare accepts state subsidies and kids as young as 6 weeks. The wait list was ~15 months long. It's very much the cheapest in the area. Friends about an hour outside of Portland are at ~$500/wk, wait list of ~12 months Friends in Knoxville are at ~800k/wk, wait list of ~2.5 years, and they have access to university daycare. Friends in the Bay Area are at ~350/wk, wait list of ~12 months. Daycare is super local, from what I can see. Still, it's crazy expensive even with state subsidies. And the wait lists are really long. I've not heard of one that was less than a normal human gestation period. NPR had a good story on how daycare is a failed market : https://www.npr.org/2023/02/02/1153931108/day-care-market-expensive-child-care-waitlists https://www.npr.org/2023/02/02/1153931108/day-care-market-ex... TLDL: Anytime you have a wait list, you have screwed up your capitalism somehow. You should be raising prices instead. Daycare is unique as most families cannot possibly afford that 'true' market rate. Think lighthouses. This is why nearly every country on the planet, and some US states, step in to help. The US is the only country that has this problem, and it really is a big problem.