4 ms·

Okay, but there are claims like: "Dinosaurs existed over 100 million years ago, before humans existed" which are controversial enough that it's part of the "cu

by Tyr42 3y ago

Okay, but there are claims like: "Dinosaurs existed over 100 million years ago, before humans existed" which are controversial enough that it's part of the "culture war". And teaching it (and carbon dating) counts as taking a side. We aren't talking about fine points of evolution, we are talking about the earth being older than mankind at all.

cooper_ganglia 3y ago
As someone who was taught all of the silly, unscientific religious “theories” like Creationism as a child, and then had to unlearn it as an adult, my position is that it is absolutely never the governments place to tell a parent what they are allowed to teach their child. It is not the responsibility of the state, in any way, shape, or form, to dictate information to a child that the parents take issue with, even if that topic is something with no scientific basis akin to creationism. Parents should always have the final say in what their children are being taught, even if it’s patently unscientific. Anything else feels like an incredibly slippery slope of, “Daddy Government knows what’s best for your kids better than you do, so we’re chipping away at your parental rights until we can save your child from your non-governmentally approved ideas!”
- api 3y ago
  I mostly agree. The fallacy of the government knows best approach is the “who watches the watchers?” problem. What happens when the government decides to teach nonsense? There is nothing magical about the state that makes it a better arbiter of truth than other institutions. Historically states have a pretty poor record. They tend to push ideas that benefit the people who control them, whether that’s a nobility or a majority faction in the electorate (or both).
- burkaman 3y ago
  > it is absolutely never the governments place to tell a parent what they are allowed to teach their child Essentially everyone in America agrees with you. This is written into our Constitution. > It is not the responsibility of the state, in any way, shape, or form, to dictate information to a child that the parents take issue with This is an impossible standard. We have to make public schooling available, and we can't provide individual tutors for every student, so they must be taught in groups. This guarantees that some students will be taught things that their parents take issue with. To compensate for this we make some escape hatches available like homeschooling, private schooling, or moving to a different school district, but these are all difficult or impossible for most parents. Some schools have offered to let parents take their kids out of class when certain topics are taught, but this approach can't scale to all subjects and topics. It also can't address parents upset about what their child is NOT being taught. I'm not aware of any educational model that gives all parents complete control over their children's education.
  - cooper_ganglia 3y ago
    Oh yes, I didn’t mean that there would be nothing parents take issue with at all. Rather, if a parent is upset enough at the idea of their child learning about evolution rather than creationism, I believe it’s within that parent’s rights to put their child in a school that more closely aligns with their beliefs. No school curriculum will ever be 100% satisfactory to 100% of people, but I believe that the state has no obligation to enforce a certain educational model simply because it is “correct”. That probably sounds a bit silly, but I just believe that people have the right to believe and teach ideas that run counter to the state-approved message, even if the state is empirically correct.
    - burkaman 3y ago
      Ok, I don't think that's particularly controversial. Most of the controversy arises from parents (or influential people without kids) trying to influence the shared public school system to match their particular standard, rather than having their kids taught elsewhere as you recommend.
      - chmod600 3y ago
        So if the shared public school system is teaching something wacky (creationism or whatever), how should that be changed? If not parents or influential people, who would cause the change to happen?
        alexvoda 3y ago
        Teaching something wacky in homeschooling is far more damaging to the student than teaching something wacky in a public school. School does not occupy all the time of a child. If a school teaches something parents disagree with, parents can debunk that when the kids are home. They can bring arguments and kids will eventually make up their own minds. Homeschooling presents a single view, that of the parents. There is no debate.

by Tyr42 3y ago

cooper_ganglia 3y ago

As someone who was taught all of the silly, unscientific religious “theories” like Creationism as a child, and then had to unlearn it as an adult, my position is that it is absolutely never the governments place to tell a parent what they are allowed to teach their child. It is not the responsibility of the state, in any way, shape, or form, to dictate information to a child that the parents take issue with, even if that topic is something with no scientific basis akin to creationism. Parents should always have the final say in what their children are being taught, even if it’s patently unscientific. Anything else feels like an incredibly slippery slope of, “Daddy Government knows what’s best for your kids better than you do, so we’re chipping away at your parental rights until we can save your child from your non-governmentally approved ideas!”

api 3y ago
I mostly agree. The fallacy of the government knows best approach is the “who watches the watchers?” problem. What happens when the government decides to teach nonsense? There is nothing magical about the state that makes it a better arbiter of truth than other institutions. Historically states have a pretty poor record. They tend to push ideas that benefit the people who control them, whether that’s a nobility or a majority faction in the electorate (or both).
burkaman 3y ago
> it is absolutely never the governments place to tell a parent what they are allowed to teach their child Essentially everyone in America agrees with you. This is written into our Constitution. > It is not the responsibility of the state, in any way, shape, or form, to dictate information to a child that the parents take issue with This is an impossible standard. We have to make public schooling available, and we can't provide individual tutors for every student, so they must be taught in groups. This guarantees that some students will be taught things that their parents take issue with. To compensate for this we make some escape hatches available like homeschooling, private schooling, or moving to a different school district, but these are all difficult or impossible for most parents. Some schools have offered to let parents take their kids out of class when certain topics are taught, but this approach can't scale to all subjects and topics. It also can't address parents upset about what their child is NOT being taught. I'm not aware of any educational model that gives all parents complete control over their children's education.
- cooper_ganglia 3y ago
  Oh yes, I didn’t mean that there would be nothing parents take issue with at all. Rather, if a parent is upset enough at the idea of their child learning about evolution rather than creationism, I believe it’s within that parent’s rights to put their child in a school that more closely aligns with their beliefs. No school curriculum will ever be 100% satisfactory to 100% of people, but I believe that the state has no obligation to enforce a certain educational model simply because it is “correct”. That probably sounds a bit silly, but I just believe that people have the right to believe and teach ideas that run counter to the state-approved message, even if the state is empirically correct.
  - burkaman 3y ago
    Ok, I don't think that's particularly controversial. Most of the controversy arises from parents (or influential people without kids) trying to influence the shared public school system to match their particular standard, rather than having their kids taught elsewhere as you recommend.
    - chmod600 3y ago
      So if the shared public school system is teaching something wacky (creationism or whatever), how should that be changed? If not parents or influential people, who would cause the change to happen?
      - alexvoda 3y ago
        Teaching something wacky in homeschooling is far more damaging to the student than teaching something wacky in a public school. School does not occupy all the time of a child. If a school teaches something parents disagree with, parents can debunk that when the kids are home. They can bring arguments and kids will eventually make up their own minds. Homeschooling presents a single view, that of the parents. There is no debate.