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As someone who was raised in religious communities, that "higher aspirations" is only the position "in principle" in reality working with people in the religiou

As someone who was raised in religious communities, that "higher aspirations" is only the position "in principle" in reality working with people in the religious community was just scams and moral self justification of despicable behavior hidden behind soft language and terrible behavior. So much contention, so much gossip, so much backbiting behavior and hidden evils against children so that communities wouldn't "lose face". The worst behaviors, the least faith, the most fear, all hidden by duplicity and a weekly practice of virtue signaling. This is not isolated, my parents were involved in the church in many states and internationally, it was everywhere. I am old enough now that I have seen the outcomes projecting into peoples 30s. I know so many poorly educated homeschoolers whose lives have been destroyed with no hope of recovery by the complete lack of skills their hyper religious parents imparted them with, in jail, broke, unable to hack it in college and too lacking in common sense to make it in the trades or professional work, with living standards insanely far below their parents. That being said, I am not against homeschooling personally and may do it myself. I think your outsider perspective makes sense since you didn't see the self-righteousness and persecution complex inherent in the system. It's like a northerner taking "bless your heart" at face value because they're dealing with a degree of cowardice and dishonest duplicity they haven't experienced before. All the best people I have known have been atheists or "religious" people who don't take it seriously and just follow their own inherent internal moral guidance (which is all the religious people are doing as well, as at core everyone acts as they choose to act.)

chlodwig 3y ago
This is not isolated, my parents were involved in the church in many states and internationally, it was everywhere. Which church?
- throwoutway 3y ago
  This was my immediate thought. "The church" sounds like a specific cult, sect, or denomination. There's a wide spectrum of beliefs across these and one cannot act like they've been to them all
  - lolinder 3y ago
    Not necessarily: in much of American Christianity, "the church" just means the collection of all Christian believers [0][1][2]. It would typically be read to exclude non-Christians, but include all mainstream sects and denominations. [0] https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/what-is-the-church-according-to-the-bible.html https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/... [1] https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-the-church.html https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-the-church.html [2] https://www.christianity.com/church/what-is-the-church-its-purpose-and-identity.html https://www.christianity.com/church/what-is-the-church-its-p...
    - _gabe_ 3y ago
      Baptists are very different from Catholics which are very different from Protestants which are very different from Church of Christ. Sure they’re all Christian, but the beliefs/cultures vary a lot between different denominations which is what I assume the two parent comments are pointing out. If you think you can collectively call American Christianity one religion, then you haven’t experienced different sects of the church. Believing in Jesus is the only common denominator.
      - lolinder 3y ago
        All I'm saying is that when the grandparent used the phrase "the church" they probably meant it in the broader "followers of Christ" sense and not a specific denomination as OP assumes. I'm very aware of the differences between denominations, and the degree to which the grandparent comment generalized across these disparate denominations is definitely problematic, but what I said is accurate: much of American Christianity uses the phrase "the church" in a highly inclusive way that is different than what OP assumed was meant.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
It’s not inherent in the system though, although you experienced some disorder.
ulizzle 3y ago
I’ve seen far more contention, gossip, and backbiting behavior in secular groups, saying this as someone who didn’t go back to religion until only a few years ago. Let’s not pretend that being secular somehow makes you levitate or something. Check out the “new atheists” and their démise. The funny part is that everyone is talking about this sort of inherent internal moral guidance, which flies in the face of the modern scientific thought.
- cwmoore 3y ago
  What science contradicts internal moral guidance?
  - ta8645 3y ago
    I'll bite. Many school curriculums teach that science proves that gender isn't a binary and is divorced from sex, and they often implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) also go further to say that it is hateful to believe otherwise. So anyone who has an internal moral voice that speaks to this issue, may be contradicted by science.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - cwmoore 3y ago
      Individuals beliefs are often contradicted by science. Citations for the point you replied to would be welcome.
      - ta8645 3y ago
        > What science contradicts internal moral guidance? > Individuals beliefs are often contradicted by science. Not sure why you asked the first question, given your belief in the second.
        cwmoore 3y ago
freeopinion 3y ago
I am reminded of people who grew up in the USA, became familiar with all its faults, and now think Scandinavia or Asia has all the right answers, because they've never observed those faults in everyday life over many years. Presumably, for all your religious upbringing, you are right-minded enough to not have all those faults. So either you are an amazing exception, or you are not. There is good and bad in the USA, and in Scandinavia or Asia. And of course there are genuine and false religious people and non-religious people. Indeed, there are both in each of us.
jeremyjh 3y ago
> I know so many poorly educated homeschoolers whose lives have been destroyed with no hope of recovery by the complete lack of skills their hyper religious parents imparted them with, in jail, broke, unable to hack it in college and too lacking in common sense to make it in the trades or professional work, with living standards insanely far below their parents. As long as we're trading samples from a single observer's recollections: mine are different. I never homeschooled myself, but I had several friends in high school who had homeschooled until then who were well-educated, were in advanced science and math etc. They've been fine since then, too. Not all parents are good teachers, but many do quite fine.
- financypants 3y ago
  I’ll add my anecdote. One of my relatives homeschools their two children. They are part of a commonwealth(?), and follow the Thomas Jefferson method which I think is kind of popular? One of their children who is 8 cannot read. The other is 6 and is far behind in all disciplines. My relative loves their children and wants the best for them, but is failing. Won’t send their kids to school for religious reasons. I’d like to know the chances of a single adult being a good teacher vs. at least one of multiple trained adults being a good teacher. I’d also like to see the downside of lack of socialization.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    Is this legal in US? I'm pretty sure this would be classified as neglect in many/most European countries.
    - civilitty 3y ago
      The vast majority of states have little oversight on homeschooling, some have none whatsoever. There’s a powerful lobby called the Homeschooling Legal Defense Association that led massive deregulation since the 80s. In some states people who are under investigation for child abuse are allowed to take their kids out of school (the place that abuse is usually reported). The situation is pretty bad. There was a whole John Oliver episode about it just weeks ago.
jstarfish 3y ago
> As someone who was raised in religious communities, that "higher aspirations" is only the position "in principle" in reality working with people in the religious community was just scams and moral self justification of despicable behavior hidden behind soft language and terrible behavior. So much contention, so much gossip, so much backbiting behavior and hidden evils against children so that communities wouldn't "lose face". The worst behaviors, the least faith, the most fear, all hidden by duplicity and a weekly practice of virtue signaling. This is not isolated, my parents were involved in the church in many states and internationally, it was everywhere. As someone who has lived amongst several different communities and denominations, some are worse than others. I'm guessing you're a former Witness? They're hard to beat.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- fellowniusmonk 3y ago
  Nah, normal mainline and evangelical denominations. Both "high church" and "low church" denominations. Both in the context of church organizations, para-church organizations and cross denominational christian universities + Oxford. In the US and Internationally.
PumpkinSpice 3y ago
> I know so many poorly educated homeschoolers whose lives have been destroyed with no hope of recovery by the complete lack of skills their hyper religious parents imparted them with, in jail, broke, unable to hack it in college and too lacking in common sense to make it in the trades or professional work, with living standards insanely far below their parents. In pretty much all studies, homeschooled children on average fare the same or better than kids who go to normal schools. While it's certainly the case that people with fringe views are more eager to homeschool their children, anti-homeschooling sentiments are really not backed by anything of substance.
- PawgerZ 3y ago
  >In pretty much all studies Any citations? I believe you, but would want to look at the methodology. If they're opt-in studies, then obviously the ones neglecting their kids in homeschool aren't going to join a study where they are scrutinized.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> hidden evils against children so that communities wouldn't "lose face" > dealing with a degree of cowardice and dishonest duplicity they haven't experienced before Grew up in a religious community, seen this first hand. Only public appearences matter. The same person that chastises people for having sex without marriage could be a weekly visitor at the whore house.
d0gsg0w00f 3y ago
> As someone who was raised in religious communities, that "higher aspirations" is only the position "in principle" in reality working with people in the religious community was just scams and moral self justification of despicable behavior hidden behind soft language and terrible behavior. Yeah, but at least there's a defined goal that they're failing at and you can point it out to them with a 30% chance they'll feel shame. In the secular world it's just free form open world. People have no anchor to cling to or example to fail to aspire to. It's just Elon Musk one week and Kylie Jenner the next.

chlodwig 3y ago

This is not isolated, my parents were involved in the church in many states and internationally, it was everywhere. Which church?

throwoutway 3y ago
This was my immediate thought. "The church" sounds like a specific cult, sect, or denomination. There's a wide spectrum of beliefs across these and one cannot act like they've been to them all
- lolinder 3y ago
  Not necessarily: in much of American Christianity, "the church" just means the collection of all Christian believers [0][1][2]. It would typically be read to exclude non-Christians, but include all mainstream sects and denominations. [0] https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/what-is-the-church-according-to-the-bible.html https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/... [1] https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-the-church.html https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-the-church.html [2] https://www.christianity.com/church/what-is-the-church-its-purpose-and-identity.html https://www.christianity.com/church/what-is-the-church-its-p...
  - _gabe_ 3y ago
    Baptists are very different from Catholics which are very different from Protestants which are very different from Church of Christ. Sure they’re all Christian, but the beliefs/cultures vary a lot between different denominations which is what I assume the two parent comments are pointing out. If you think you can collectively call American Christianity one religion, then you haven’t experienced different sects of the church. Believing in Jesus is the only common denominator.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      All I'm saying is that when the grandparent used the phrase "the church" they probably meant it in the broader "followers of Christ" sense and not a specific denomination as OP assumes. I'm very aware of the differences between denominations, and the degree to which the grandparent comment generalized across these disparate denominations is definitely problematic, but what I said is accurate: much of American Christianity uses the phrase "the church" in a highly inclusive way that is different than what OP assumed was meant.

mensetmanusman 3y ago

It’s not inherent in the system though, although you experienced some disorder.

ulizzle 3y ago

I’ve seen far more contention, gossip, and backbiting behavior in secular groups, saying this as someone who didn’t go back to religion until only a few years ago. Let’s not pretend that being secular somehow makes you levitate or something. Check out the “new atheists” and their démise. The funny part is that everyone is talking about this sort of inherent internal moral guidance, which flies in the face of the modern scientific thought.

cwmoore 3y ago
What science contradicts internal moral guidance?
- ta8645 3y ago
  I'll bite. Many school curriculums teach that science proves that gender isn't a binary and is divorced from sex, and they often implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) also go further to say that it is hateful to believe otherwise. So anyone who has an internal moral voice that speaks to this issue, may be contradicted by science.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - cwmoore 3y ago
    Individuals beliefs are often contradicted by science. Citations for the point you replied to would be welcome.
    - ta8645 3y ago
      > What science contradicts internal moral guidance? > Individuals beliefs are often contradicted by science. Not sure why you asked the first question, given your belief in the second.
      - cwmoore 3y ago

freeopinion 3y ago

I am reminded of people who grew up in the USA, became familiar with all its faults, and now think Scandinavia or Asia has all the right answers, because they've never observed those faults in everyday life over many years. Presumably, for all your religious upbringing, you are right-minded enough to not have all those faults. So either you are an amazing exception, or you are not. There is good and bad in the USA, and in Scandinavia or Asia. And of course there are genuine and false religious people and non-religious people. Indeed, there are both in each of us.

jeremyjh 3y ago

> I know so many poorly educated homeschoolers whose lives have been destroyed with no hope of recovery by the complete lack of skills their hyper religious parents imparted them with, in jail, broke, unable to hack it in college and too lacking in common sense to make it in the trades or professional work, with living standards insanely far below their parents. As long as we're trading samples from a single observer's recollections: mine are different. I never homeschooled myself, but I had several friends in high school who had homeschooled until then who were well-educated, were in advanced science and math etc. They've been fine since then, too. Not all parents are good teachers, but many do quite fine.

financypants 3y ago
I’ll add my anecdote. One of my relatives homeschools their two children. They are part of a commonwealth(?), and follow the Thomas Jefferson method which I think is kind of popular? One of their children who is 8 cannot read. The other is 6 and is far behind in all disciplines. My relative loves their children and wants the best for them, but is failing. Won’t send their kids to school for religious reasons. I’d like to know the chances of a single adult being a good teacher vs. at least one of multiple trained adults being a good teacher. I’d also like to see the downside of lack of socialization.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  Is this legal in US? I'm pretty sure this would be classified as neglect in many/most European countries.
  - civilitty 3y ago
    The vast majority of states have little oversight on homeschooling, some have none whatsoever. There’s a powerful lobby called the Homeschooling Legal Defense Association that led massive deregulation since the 80s. In some states people who are under investigation for child abuse are allowed to take their kids out of school (the place that abuse is usually reported). The situation is pretty bad. There was a whole John Oliver episode about it just weeks ago.

jstarfish 3y ago

> As someone who was raised in religious communities, that "higher aspirations" is only the position "in principle" in reality working with people in the religious community was just scams and moral self justification of despicable behavior hidden behind soft language and terrible behavior. So much contention, so much gossip, so much backbiting behavior and hidden evils against children so that communities wouldn't "lose face". The worst behaviors, the least faith, the most fear, all hidden by duplicity and a weekly practice of virtue signaling. This is not isolated, my parents were involved in the church in many states and internationally, it was everywhere. As someone who has lived amongst several different communities and denominations, some are worse than others. I'm guessing you're a former Witness? They're hard to beat.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
fellowniusmonk 3y ago
Nah, normal mainline and evangelical denominations. Both "high church" and "low church" denominations. Both in the context of church organizations, para-church organizations and cross denominational christian universities + Oxford. In the US and Internationally.

PumpkinSpice 3y ago

> I know so many poorly educated homeschoolers whose lives have been destroyed with no hope of recovery by the complete lack of skills their hyper religious parents imparted them with, in jail, broke, unable to hack it in college and too lacking in common sense to make it in the trades or professional work, with living standards insanely far below their parents. In pretty much all studies, homeschooled children on average fare the same or better than kids who go to normal schools. While it's certainly the case that people with fringe views are more eager to homeschool their children, anti-homeschooling sentiments are really not backed by anything of substance.

PawgerZ 3y ago
>In pretty much all studies Any citations? I believe you, but would want to look at the methodology. If they're opt-in studies, then obviously the ones neglecting their kids in homeschool aren't going to join a study where they are scrutinized.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

> hidden evils against children so that communities wouldn't "lose face" > dealing with a degree of cowardice and dishonest duplicity they haven't experienced before Grew up in a religious community, seen this first hand. Only public appearences matter. The same person that chastises people for having sex without marriage could be a weekly visitor at the whore house.

d0gsg0w00f 3y ago

> As someone who was raised in religious communities, that "higher aspirations" is only the position "in principle" in reality working with people in the religious community was just scams and moral self justification of despicable behavior hidden behind soft language and terrible behavior. Yeah, but at least there's a defined goal that they're failing at and you can point it out to them with a 30% chance they'll feel shame. In the secular world it's just free form open world. People have no anchor to cling to or example to fail to aspire to. It's just Elon Musk one week and Kylie Jenner the next.