6 ms·

i think one of the greatest crimes of the modern world is light pollution. it has completely redefined nearly everyone's perception of the universe and themselv

by ruined 3y ago

i think one of the greatest crimes of the modern world is light pollution. it has completely redefined nearly everyone's perception of the universe and themselves in a really tragic way. we would all be better off with fewer lights on buildings, and fewer streetlights. there is no reason for most of them, and the cost is existentially incredible.

Fnoord 3y ago
Well, that depends. In general, there's no need for street lights to be on when there's no traffic. But I grew up traveling throughout my country from rural to main capital and there was always an area of the highway without street lights. That area was noticeably more dangerous because you simply see less, and have less reaction time. Especially during rain or snow or other extreme weather. It isn't just other cars. It is also deer who might pass the highway, for example. And that area was in a forest. If there were some kind of way to have them more intelligently work on/off (for example by seeing phone signals come closer) I'd wager we'd already have such. I actually dislike that premise and would like to agree with you (selfishly: I'd like my kids to grow up on a livable planet), so I hope you can prove me wrong.
- switchbak 3y ago
  There was a Cadillac from 2000 that had night vision in a HUD style design [1]. That never caught on, but there's no reason we couldn't have a really great implementation of that now. I don't know if an IR emmitter would be reasonable, but that could augment the headlights to provide some really good visibility even without street lights. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIR_LzriXYE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIR_LzriXYE
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    Larger Audis have night vision as an option: https://www.audi-technology-portal.de/en/electrics-electronics/driver-assistant-systems/night-vision-assistant https://www.audi-technology-portal.de/en/electrics-electroni...
bch 3y ago
Ironic how, in a way, light keeps us from being illuminated.
crazygringo 3y ago
> there is no reason for most of them Yes there is, it's crime. Street lights deter crime. Also simply driving safety. Driving with just headlights causes more accidents than on a well-lit street, since visibility is so much worse. I love to see the night sky as well, but I don't want to pretend there aren't extremely good reasons for street lighting, and those reasons aren't going away. That being said, are there ways to reduce outdoor lighting of giant industrial parking lots, of stadiums at 3 am, or whole floors of skyscrapers when 99% of people have gone home? Sure. But at the same time, reducing nighttime lighting by 50% isn't really going to make any difference in sky visibility. It's more about not wasting electricity. I'm talking mostly about urban areas though -- in rural areas where there's already a decent amount of visibility and the population is small enough that most roads already don't have street lights, then regulation can actually make a difference, e.g. banning always-on floodlights on people's driveways.
- sgu999 3y ago
  Regarding crime and driving safety, it does seem like a suboptimal solution that may even trigger some Jevons paradox. Are drivers going faster because it's well lit? Will people be less prudent when walking through it alone? etc. On the good side of the spectrum, I've never experienced a city as dark as Tokyo at night, which is also one of the safest on both accounts...
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    > Will people be less prudent when walking through it alone? So you're blaming victims for being mugged -- or worse? Because they weren't "prudent" enough? Rather than realizing that dark areas create opportunities for criminals where they won't be recognized, or caught on camera, and where they can escape without people spotting them? The lower rates of crime in Japan are due to cultural factors. And lighting doesn't change cultural factors.
    - sgu999 3y ago
      > So you're blaming victims for being mugged -- or worse? Because they weren't "prudent" enough? Of course not, I am merely pointing the fact that the feeling of safety may not be actual safety. Changing the environment alters the behaviour of criminals and potential victims. You also ignored that in the same sentence I blamed perpetrators: imprudent drivers. > The lower rates of crime in Japan are due to cultural factors. And lighting doesn't change cultural factors. That's basically where I was going with this. As if the Japanese had always been tidy, the Dutch always fervent cyclists, the Italians smug about their food quality, etc. Culture shifts.
switchbak 3y ago
Greatest crimes? Dumping PFAS and mercury into our ecosystem? Sure. Acid rain? Yeah. Bright cities? I think there's a long list of 'crimes' I'd put before that, and I love the night sky. Some of these things won't be gone for generations or more, whereas you can turn lights off pretty easily. Ideally we'll swap out the older designs of streetlights and such as better designs become prevalent and there's economic incentives to do so.
ilyt 3y ago
[dead]
Gigachad 3y ago
The greatest crime? What? We are literally pumping plastics and carcinogens in to the air 24/7, poisoning the ground, and deforesting the planet. Some light pollution is unfortunate but it’s essentially trivial in comparison. It causes no long term damage and doesn’t really do anything but make the sky less interesting.

by ruined 3y ago

Fnoord 3y ago

Well, that depends. In general, there's no need for street lights to be on when there's no traffic. But I grew up traveling throughout my country from rural to main capital and there was always an area of the highway without street lights. That area was noticeably more dangerous because you simply see less, and have less reaction time. Especially during rain or snow or other extreme weather. It isn't just other cars. It is also deer who might pass the highway, for example. And that area was in a forest. If there were some kind of way to have them more intelligently work on/off (for example by seeing phone signals come closer) I'd wager we'd already have such. I actually dislike that premise and would like to agree with you (selfishly: I'd like my kids to grow up on a livable planet), so I hope you can prove me wrong.

switchbak 3y ago
There was a Cadillac from 2000 that had night vision in a HUD style design [1]. That never caught on, but there's no reason we couldn't have a really great implementation of that now. I don't know if an IR emmitter would be reasonable, but that could augment the headlights to provide some really good visibility even without street lights. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIR_LzriXYE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIR_LzriXYE
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  Larger Audis have night vision as an option: https://www.audi-technology-portal.de/en/electrics-electronics/driver-assistant-systems/night-vision-assistant https://www.audi-technology-portal.de/en/electrics-electroni...

bch 3y ago

Ironic how, in a way, light keeps us from being illuminated.

crazygringo 3y ago

> there is no reason for most of them Yes there is, it's crime. Street lights deter crime. Also simply driving safety. Driving with just headlights causes more accidents than on a well-lit street, since visibility is so much worse. I love to see the night sky as well, but I don't want to pretend there aren't extremely good reasons for street lighting, and those reasons aren't going away. That being said, are there ways to reduce outdoor lighting of giant industrial parking lots, of stadiums at 3 am, or whole floors of skyscrapers when 99% of people have gone home? Sure. But at the same time, reducing nighttime lighting by 50% isn't really going to make any difference in sky visibility. It's more about not wasting electricity. I'm talking mostly about urban areas though -- in rural areas where there's already a decent amount of visibility and the population is small enough that most roads already don't have street lights, then regulation can actually make a difference, e.g. banning always-on floodlights on people's driveways.

sgu999 3y ago
Regarding crime and driving safety, it does seem like a suboptimal solution that may even trigger some Jevons paradox. Are drivers going faster because it's well lit? Will people be less prudent when walking through it alone? etc. On the good side of the spectrum, I've never experienced a city as dark as Tokyo at night, which is also one of the safest on both accounts...
- crazygringo 3y ago
  > Will people be less prudent when walking through it alone? So you're blaming victims for being mugged -- or worse? Because they weren't "prudent" enough? Rather than realizing that dark areas create opportunities for criminals where they won't be recognized, or caught on camera, and where they can escape without people spotting them? The lower rates of crime in Japan are due to cultural factors. And lighting doesn't change cultural factors.
  - sgu999 3y ago
    > So you're blaming victims for being mugged -- or worse? Because they weren't "prudent" enough? Of course not, I am merely pointing the fact that the feeling of safety may not be actual safety. Changing the environment alters the behaviour of criminals and potential victims. You also ignored that in the same sentence I blamed perpetrators: imprudent drivers. > The lower rates of crime in Japan are due to cultural factors. And lighting doesn't change cultural factors. That's basically where I was going with this. As if the Japanese had always been tidy, the Dutch always fervent cyclists, the Italians smug about their food quality, etc. Culture shifts.

switchbak 3y ago

Greatest crimes? Dumping PFAS and mercury into our ecosystem? Sure. Acid rain? Yeah. Bright cities? I think there's a long list of 'crimes' I'd put before that, and I love the night sky. Some of these things won't be gone for generations or more, whereas you can turn lights off pretty easily. Ideally we'll swap out the older designs of streetlights and such as better designs become prevalent and there's economic incentives to do so.

ilyt 3y ago

[dead]

Gigachad 3y ago

The greatest crime? What? We are literally pumping plastics and carcinogens in to the air 24/7, poisoning the ground, and deforesting the planet. Some light pollution is unfortunate but it’s essentially trivial in comparison. It causes no long term damage and doesn’t really do anything but make the sky less interesting.