8 ms·

NASA can't open its asteroid capsule

122 points by adolph 3y ago

adolph 3y ago
ACR Torq-Set Drive System . . . is an offset cruciform drive system that allows more torque to be applied.
- thghtihadanacct 3y ago
  Oh my, Im looking forward to getting some of those. Never thought I would be so excited about not stripping out screws. I bet their next approved tool kit is going to come with a drill bit
  - thghtihadanacct 3y ago
    interesting ... and tiring of this site ... this post just lost a point. Why? no response, no reasoning against wanting screws that perform well. Just a loss of points. FU y combinator ... i think ill spend more time posting elsewhere
- rkagerer 3y ago
  From their website: "Are you interested in Licensing this technology...?" It's bugs me they can get a patent on a shape with features that you or I could design in a couple nights. I thought the whole reason the world didn't already adopt better screw heads than blasted Phillips (like Robertson, or square bits for those who aren't familiar) is that licensing arrangements weren't economical.
  - stop50 3y ago
    I personally think that torx should be used more often(the star shape).
    - c4mpute 3y ago
      Agreed. Torx might not be ideal, but it is widespread and (relatively) cheap. And miles better than anything else that is widespread and cheap.
    - archi42 3y ago
      The local hardware stores' own brands offer a wide range of cheap, torx-compatible screws. I think this started not too long ago (but can't say for sure, probably 2019 when the latest torx patent expired?), and they still offer screws with the normal cross shape. Both are of the same, decent quality. I only buy the torx/star variants, since they're just superior.
    - Workaccount2 3y ago
      Regular people cannot handle using torx. Philips is nice because (untrained) people naturally will over-tighten the fuck out of every screw they encounter. Philips cams out and prevents them from going too far overboard. In fact its literal design goal was to make a screw that is hard to over-tighten. I know if we used torx on some of our products, we'd spent 10000% more time on removing snapped screw bodies.
      - BobaFloutist 3y ago
        It's me, I'm untrained people. Is there a decent convention for how much a screw should be tightened, or is it fully case-by-case?
        Workaccount2 3y ago
        There are torque specs and torque wrenches to solve this problem in manufacturing. For day to day, 95% of the time you can tighten a screw gently until it stops, its head fully against the surface, then just "snug it up" a bit to seat it. "Snug it up" is of course vague, so refer back to line 1.
    - MisterTea 3y ago
      Square Robertson screws are my go to. My father had a wood shop and used them for production as they were nearly impossible to strip and the screw holds tight into the slightly tapered driver. So I grew up using them for various projects as we had boxes of them. You can easily one hand a 3-4 inch #10 deck screw. Those crappy Torx things they sell don't compare.
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    If we are playing pin the plan on the happenstance I guess the profit from the patent could pay for the sales work necessary to turn a random shape into a standard anyone uses.
  - johnwalkr 3y ago
    You or I could not "design it in a couple nights". For a one-off part with no particular requirements, sure, although it's a lot of work just to manufacture and test once for a critical application. And there is no point to design such a thing except for a critical application with some unique requirements. But to make a new standard, mass-produced fastener to replace an existing one and make sure it's manufacturable, make sure its actually better than something like Torx and is worth making for your niche customers, make sure you've got the dimensions correct for all different sizes, then make prototypes and test them it could easily be person-years of work. That being said, pozi-driv and JIS "+" style screws are far superior to philips and readily available. Even in Europe half the time you see a "+" it's philips and it's kind of impossible now have everyone know the difference and to deprecate philips even though they do usually have markings.[1] [1]https://rtstools.com/jis-vs-phillips-screwdrivers-and-where-to-buy-a-jis-screwdriver/ https://rtstools.com/jis-vs-phillips-screwdrivers-and-where-...
- dtgriscom 3y ago
  Boy, those look expensive to make. Not gonna use those to build a deck.
  - voxadam 3y ago
    Agreed. I'd love to see the manufacturing process for those heads. I can't imagine such fine detail being forged. Maybe it's some type of multi-step blind broaching process. Like you said, expensive.
    - LeifCarrotson 3y ago
      Most screw heads are formed in a cold header. If you've never seen one running, you'd think it was magic. Wire goes in one side, and using a surprisingly simple and old (WWII era) machine made with some heavy castings, plain bearings, oily camshafts, and the magic of tool steel, the wire is incrementally upset, extruded, formed, punched, and thread rolled. Screws roll out the other side at an astonishing rate - hundreds per minute. I can't share video of my customer's machine running, but here's one from Youtube: https://youtu.be/WoN2KKfbzLA?si=iN42q6n1wBkoJ-gS&t=187 https://youtu.be/WoN2KKfbzLA?si=iN42q6n1wBkoJ-gS&t=187 I imagine that many screws on spacecraft use CNC-cut machine screw threads, and have significant QC measures in place, but I'd be unsurprised if they had cold-formed Torx or hex heads.
- adhesive_wombat 3y ago
  See also MorTorq, also by Phillips, which can work in fasteners with low-profile heads.
- pwatsonwailes 3y ago
  Nah, they need Rockwell Automation's retro encabulator. The inverse reactive current it produces (designed for use in unilateral phase detractors) should also be capable of automatically synchronising cardinal gram meters. My guess would be that the gram meters have become unsynchronised. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&ab_channel=rlcarnes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&ab_channel=rlcar...
nullhole 3y ago
FTA: > This might delay the process by a few weeks.
- ragebol 3y ago
  SO, kinda clickbaity?
  - bowsamic 3y ago
    It’s still interesting to get some insight into small technical problems
    - thfuran 3y ago
      Unfortunately, the article doesn't really provide any of that. Frankly, is not really even an article.
  - kleiba 3y ago
    Very much clickbait - it is worded as if NASA were incapable of removing a bunch of screws, but the problem is not that they can't open a container they built themselves, the problem is that they want to make sure that they won't accidentally contaminate the collected samples by using the wrong instruments. Thus only pre-approved tools must be used, and they're not the right ones for the job. Surely, that can be called a hickup, or lack of proper planning, but it really isn't that much of an issue. That's why it will only delay the operation by a short amount of time.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      My immediate thought when I read the headline is I can open that box - but I'll contaminate the contents in the process. Opening a sealed box is easy, it is when you want to preserve the box or the contents it gets hard.
Smoosh 3y ago
I look forward to the analysis to see what the root cause was and whether the new drive system was part of the problem, or if the threads were simply seized beyond the capability of any drive system. If they extracted almost all of the fasteners, that seems like it would be the latter.
AYBABTME 3y ago
I wonder how they designed it all so that it would be machined in earth's atmosphere at ambient temperature, made to open in a cold near-0K vacuum, collect electrostatically charged fine dust material of unknown chemistry, close up the container despite deformation from pressure and temperature differential since machining, reenter atmosphere at high temperature... then come back to earth... and then the bolts are supposed to not have seized or deformed or obstructed or be under excessive force from the pressure. I'm sure they somehow designed around all this? Or am I over complicating the nature of the problem?
- devjab 3y ago
  I read it as though they might have miscalculated which tools they would need to open it, and now that it’s partly opened inside the “anti-atmosphere box” they can’t easily add additional tools.
  - ScoobleDoodle 3y ago
    They’re going to need enclose that all in a bigger anti-atmosphere box.
    - Kaibeezy 3y ago
      I want to be the person in the monkey suit who said "We're going to need a bigger boat."
      - HansHamster 3y ago
        Does this count? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0lpiXAHuyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0lpiXAHuyA
dudeinjapan 3y ago
Better headline: “NASA can’t access asteroid sealed in alien force field.”
Prickle 3y ago
Original source from NASA: https://blogs.nasa.gov/osiris-rex/2023/10/20/nasas-osiris-rex-achieves-sample-mass-milestone/ https://blogs.nasa.gov/osiris-rex/2023/10/20/nasas-osiris-re...
- raldi 3y ago
  Much better, and without the hyperbolic headline.
  - zzzeek 3y ago
    but no photograph. the photo here is most valuable. I find the electrical receptacles with the yellow extension cord plugged in and the cheap shelving unit with almost nothing on it that is pretty much the identical shelves I use in my basement to store groceries to be the most fascinating aspect of it. seems like there'd be a more...I dont know, "special" kind of room to unpack rock samples that cost $1.16 billion to acquire
    - erulabs 3y ago
      That’s deliberate - NASA goes out of its way to use ordinary consumer goods when possible. You can imagine how much money you could spend on a special room for billion dollar rocks! Surely 150M is nothing! The actual problem statement: “we need a safe room for some rocks” only requires a couple plastic bins and some tape. I’m always so pleased by how hacky NASA stuff looks!
      - exmadscientist 3y ago
        Brings back memories for me. I used to work on particle physics experiments. The "science groupies" would be amazed at what happens behind the scenes. There were a couple of deliberately broken vacuum cleaner parts that happened to play a surprisingly important role in certain neutrino parameter measurements....
        yetihehe 3y ago
londons_explore 3y ago
Ooh - let me guess... It's a stainless screw in a stainless thread and has suffered spalling? Spalling is a really wierd effect that only happens with screws and threads made of stainless steel. You can tighten a screw with your fingers (no tools, just finger tightened), and then try to undo it and it'll suddenly be stuck. You try with tools, and it's still stuck. You use a lot of force, and it snaps off! It happens because stainless steel can act a little like animal fur - rub in one direction and it slides easily, while when you change direction the fur meshes and refuses to move at all. Doesn't happen reliably either - you can have 100 identical screws in 100 identical holes, and perhaps 5% will get stuck. Normally the fix is to put vaseline or some other lubricant on the screws (before it gets stuck - after it's stuck you're sol), but I figure the NASA team doesn't want that lubricant contaminating their sample.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Brajeshwar 3y ago
  I'd really love that, perhaps, perhaps, we get an update to this comment -- “Hey guys, NASA just contacted me.” :-)
- pibefision 3y ago
  I like this forum because this kind of explanations. Thank you
- xattt 3y ago
  Is there a way to anticipate the “direction” of the “grain” of stainless steel?
- ben_w 3y ago
  I'd be a bit surprised if they have two moving parts, made of the same metal, in contact with each other: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_welding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_welding
- cuSetanta 3y ago
  From what I can see the TAGSAM head did use stainless steel screws, but the majority of the structure is aluminium [1]. So its possible there is a galvanic corrosion issue that caused the screws to bind, but I would be a little surprised at that based on how the TAGSAM has been handled throughout its life. Still does feel like the most likely issue though. Regarding lubrication on screws in space, it is done quite regularly with a variety of lubricants (as well as thread lockers) [2]. I can imagine that none were used in a system that is meant to be kept as free of contaminants as the TAGSAM is though. Hard to know with any amount of confidence. From experience with spacecraft integration, when the article mentions that they didn't have a suitable tool for removal of two screws, my head immediately jumps to an access issue. Its amazing the number of times I have heard 'it fits in the CAD' from the designers, when you have no access at all for getting a screwdriver to the screw, let alone a torque wrench. So it could be as simple as that. [1] - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-018-0521-6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-018-0521-6 [2] - https://ecss.nl/hbstms/ecss-e-hb-32-23a-threaded-fasteners-handbook/ https://ecss.nl/hbstms/ecss-e-hb-32-23a-threaded-fasteners-h...
Aardwolf 3y ago
At least it's on Earth, from the title I thought a mission in space that landed on an asteroid was borked for collecting samples
fourseventy 3y ago
Run the lid under some hot water
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
secondcoming 3y ago
Soak it in WD40?
- LeifCarrotson 3y ago
  "Complex organic molecules found in samples returned from asteroid Bennu! Spectral analysis looks a lot like AeroKroil."
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
andrewstuart 3y ago
They should just give up and toss it out.
tonetheman 3y ago
[dead]
AlexDragusin 3y ago
Do the screws have the latest firmware update? On a serious note, when you think of what achievment this mission is, it's silly how this is the issue they are dealing with. Good they were able to get some of the sample out though and this will also help develop better solutions so they don't get screwed again :)
ozfive 3y ago
Isn't this called cold welding in space?

122 points by adolph 3y ago

adolph 3y ago

ACR Torq-Set Drive System . . . is an offset cruciform drive system that allows more torque to be applied.

thghtihadanacct 3y ago
Oh my, Im looking forward to getting some of those. Never thought I would be so excited about not stripping out screws. I bet their next approved tool kit is going to come with a drill bit
- thghtihadanacct 3y ago
  interesting ... and tiring of this site ... this post just lost a point. Why? no response, no reasoning against wanting screws that perform well. Just a loss of points. FU y combinator ... i think ill spend more time posting elsewhere
rkagerer 3y ago
From their website: "Are you interested in Licensing this technology...?" It's bugs me they can get a patent on a shape with features that you or I could design in a couple nights. I thought the whole reason the world didn't already adopt better screw heads than blasted Phillips (like Robertson, or square bits for those who aren't familiar) is that licensing arrangements weren't economical.
- stop50 3y ago
  I personally think that torx should be used more often(the star shape).
  - c4mpute 3y ago
    Agreed. Torx might not be ideal, but it is widespread and (relatively) cheap. And miles better than anything else that is widespread and cheap.
  - archi42 3y ago
    The local hardware stores' own brands offer a wide range of cheap, torx-compatible screws. I think this started not too long ago (but can't say for sure, probably 2019 when the latest torx patent expired?), and they still offer screws with the normal cross shape. Both are of the same, decent quality. I only buy the torx/star variants, since they're just superior.
  - Workaccount2 3y ago
    Regular people cannot handle using torx. Philips is nice because (untrained) people naturally will over-tighten the fuck out of every screw they encounter. Philips cams out and prevents them from going too far overboard. In fact its literal design goal was to make a screw that is hard to over-tighten. I know if we used torx on some of our products, we'd spent 10000% more time on removing snapped screw bodies.
    - BobaFloutist 3y ago
      It's me, I'm untrained people. Is there a decent convention for how much a screw should be tightened, or is it fully case-by-case?
      - Workaccount2 3y ago
        There are torque specs and torque wrenches to solve this problem in manufacturing. For day to day, 95% of the time you can tighten a screw gently until it stops, its head fully against the surface, then just "snug it up" a bit to seat it. "Snug it up" is of course vague, so refer back to line 1.
  - MisterTea 3y ago
    Square Robertson screws are my go to. My father had a wood shop and used them for production as they were nearly impossible to strip and the screw holds tight into the slightly tapered driver. So I grew up using them for various projects as we had boxes of them. You can easily one hand a 3-4 inch #10 deck screw. Those crappy Torx things they sell don't compare.
- whatshisface 3y ago
  If we are playing pin the plan on the happenstance I guess the profit from the patent could pay for the sales work necessary to turn a random shape into a standard anyone uses.
- johnwalkr 3y ago
  You or I could not "design it in a couple nights". For a one-off part with no particular requirements, sure, although it's a lot of work just to manufacture and test once for a critical application. And there is no point to design such a thing except for a critical application with some unique requirements. But to make a new standard, mass-produced fastener to replace an existing one and make sure it's manufacturable, make sure its actually better than something like Torx and is worth making for your niche customers, make sure you've got the dimensions correct for all different sizes, then make prototypes and test them it could easily be person-years of work. That being said, pozi-driv and JIS "+" style screws are far superior to philips and readily available. Even in Europe half the time you see a "+" it's philips and it's kind of impossible now have everyone know the difference and to deprecate philips even though they do usually have markings.[1] [1]https://rtstools.com/jis-vs-phillips-screwdrivers-and-where-to-buy-a-jis-screwdriver/ https://rtstools.com/jis-vs-phillips-screwdrivers-and-where-...
dtgriscom 3y ago
Boy, those look expensive to make. Not gonna use those to build a deck.
- voxadam 3y ago
  Agreed. I'd love to see the manufacturing process for those heads. I can't imagine such fine detail being forged. Maybe it's some type of multi-step blind broaching process. Like you said, expensive.
  - LeifCarrotson 3y ago
    Most screw heads are formed in a cold header. If you've never seen one running, you'd think it was magic. Wire goes in one side, and using a surprisingly simple and old (WWII era) machine made with some heavy castings, plain bearings, oily camshafts, and the magic of tool steel, the wire is incrementally upset, extruded, formed, punched, and thread rolled. Screws roll out the other side at an astonishing rate - hundreds per minute. I can't share video of my customer's machine running, but here's one from Youtube: https://youtu.be/WoN2KKfbzLA?si=iN42q6n1wBkoJ-gS&t=187 https://youtu.be/WoN2KKfbzLA?si=iN42q6n1wBkoJ-gS&t=187 I imagine that many screws on spacecraft use CNC-cut machine screw threads, and have significant QC measures in place, but I'd be unsurprised if they had cold-formed Torx or hex heads.
adhesive_wombat 3y ago
See also MorTorq, also by Phillips, which can work in fasteners with low-profile heads.
pwatsonwailes 3y ago
Nah, they need Rockwell Automation's retro encabulator. The inverse reactive current it produces (designed for use in unilateral phase detractors) should also be capable of automatically synchronising cardinal gram meters. My guess would be that the gram meters have become unsynchronised. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&ab_channel=rlcarnes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&ab_channel=rlcar...

nullhole 3y ago

FTA: > This might delay the process by a few weeks.

ragebol 3y ago
SO, kinda clickbaity?
- bowsamic 3y ago
  It’s still interesting to get some insight into small technical problems
  - thfuran 3y ago
    Unfortunately, the article doesn't really provide any of that. Frankly, is not really even an article.
- kleiba 3y ago
  Very much clickbait - it is worded as if NASA were incapable of removing a bunch of screws, but the problem is not that they can't open a container they built themselves, the problem is that they want to make sure that they won't accidentally contaminate the collected samples by using the wrong instruments. Thus only pre-approved tools must be used, and they're not the right ones for the job. Surely, that can be called a hickup, or lack of proper planning, but it really isn't that much of an issue. That's why it will only delay the operation by a short amount of time.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    My immediate thought when I read the headline is I can open that box - but I'll contaminate the contents in the process. Opening a sealed box is easy, it is when you want to preserve the box or the contents it gets hard.

Smoosh 3y ago

I look forward to the analysis to see what the root cause was and whether the new drive system was part of the problem, or if the threads were simply seized beyond the capability of any drive system. If they extracted almost all of the fasteners, that seems like it would be the latter.

AYBABTME 3y ago

I wonder how they designed it all so that it would be machined in earth's atmosphere at ambient temperature, made to open in a cold near-0K vacuum, collect electrostatically charged fine dust material of unknown chemistry, close up the container despite deformation from pressure and temperature differential since machining, reenter atmosphere at high temperature... then come back to earth... and then the bolts are supposed to not have seized or deformed or obstructed or be under excessive force from the pressure. I'm sure they somehow designed around all this? Or am I over complicating the nature of the problem?

devjab 3y ago
I read it as though they might have miscalculated which tools they would need to open it, and now that it’s partly opened inside the “anti-atmosphere box” they can’t easily add additional tools.
- ScoobleDoodle 3y ago
  They’re going to need enclose that all in a bigger anti-atmosphere box.
  - Kaibeezy 3y ago
    I want to be the person in the monkey suit who said "We're going to need a bigger boat."
    - HansHamster 3y ago
      Does this count? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0lpiXAHuyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0lpiXAHuyA

dudeinjapan 3y ago

Better headline: “NASA can’t access asteroid sealed in alien force field.”

Prickle 3y ago

Original source from NASA: https://blogs.nasa.gov/osiris-rex/2023/10/20/nasas-osiris-rex-achieves-sample-mass-milestone/ https://blogs.nasa.gov/osiris-rex/2023/10/20/nasas-osiris-re...

raldi 3y ago
Much better, and without the hyperbolic headline.
- zzzeek 3y ago
  but no photograph. the photo here is most valuable. I find the electrical receptacles with the yellow extension cord plugged in and the cheap shelving unit with almost nothing on it that is pretty much the identical shelves I use in my basement to store groceries to be the most fascinating aspect of it. seems like there'd be a more...I dont know, "special" kind of room to unpack rock samples that cost $1.16 billion to acquire
  - erulabs 3y ago
    That’s deliberate - NASA goes out of its way to use ordinary consumer goods when possible. You can imagine how much money you could spend on a special room for billion dollar rocks! Surely 150M is nothing! The actual problem statement: “we need a safe room for some rocks” only requires a couple plastic bins and some tape. I’m always so pleased by how hacky NASA stuff looks!
    - exmadscientist 3y ago
      Brings back memories for me. I used to work on particle physics experiments. The "science groupies" would be amazed at what happens behind the scenes. There were a couple of deliberately broken vacuum cleaner parts that happened to play a surprisingly important role in certain neutrino parameter measurements....
      - yetihehe 3y ago

londons_explore 3y ago

Ooh - let me guess... It's a stainless screw in a stainless thread and has suffered spalling? Spalling is a really wierd effect that only happens with screws and threads made of stainless steel. You can tighten a screw with your fingers (no tools, just finger tightened), and then try to undo it and it'll suddenly be stuck. You try with tools, and it's still stuck. You use a lot of force, and it snaps off! It happens because stainless steel can act a little like animal fur - rub in one direction and it slides easily, while when you change direction the fur meshes and refuses to move at all. Doesn't happen reliably either - you can have 100 identical screws in 100 identical holes, and perhaps 5% will get stuck. Normally the fix is to put vaseline or some other lubricant on the screws (before it gets stuck - after it's stuck you're sol), but I figure the NASA team doesn't want that lubricant contaminating their sample.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Brajeshwar 3y ago
I'd really love that, perhaps, perhaps, we get an update to this comment -- “Hey guys, NASA just contacted me.” :-)
pibefision 3y ago
I like this forum because this kind of explanations. Thank you
xattt 3y ago
Is there a way to anticipate the “direction” of the “grain” of stainless steel?
ben_w 3y ago
I'd be a bit surprised if they have two moving parts, made of the same metal, in contact with each other: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_welding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_welding
cuSetanta 3y ago
From what I can see the TAGSAM head did use stainless steel screws, but the majority of the structure is aluminium [1]. So its possible there is a galvanic corrosion issue that caused the screws to bind, but I would be a little surprised at that based on how the TAGSAM has been handled throughout its life. Still does feel like the most likely issue though. Regarding lubrication on screws in space, it is done quite regularly with a variety of lubricants (as well as thread lockers) [2]. I can imagine that none were used in a system that is meant to be kept as free of contaminants as the TAGSAM is though. Hard to know with any amount of confidence. From experience with spacecraft integration, when the article mentions that they didn't have a suitable tool for removal of two screws, my head immediately jumps to an access issue. Its amazing the number of times I have heard 'it fits in the CAD' from the designers, when you have no access at all for getting a screwdriver to the screw, let alone a torque wrench. So it could be as simple as that. [1] - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-018-0521-6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-018-0521-6 [2] - https://ecss.nl/hbstms/ecss-e-hb-32-23a-threaded-fasteners-handbook/ https://ecss.nl/hbstms/ecss-e-hb-32-23a-threaded-fasteners-h...

Aardwolf 3y ago

At least it's on Earth, from the title I thought a mission in space that landed on an asteroid was borked for collecting samples

fourseventy 3y ago

Run the lid under some hot water

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

secondcoming 3y ago

Soak it in WD40?

LeifCarrotson 3y ago
"Complex organic molecules found in samples returned from asteroid Bennu! Spectral analysis looks a lot like AeroKroil."

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

andrewstuart 3y ago

They should just give up and toss it out.

tonetheman 3y ago

[dead]

AlexDragusin 3y ago

Do the screws have the latest firmware update? On a serious note, when you think of what achievment this mission is, it's silly how this is the issue they are dealing with. Good they were able to get some of the sample out though and this will also help develop better solutions so they don't get screwed again :)

ozfive 3y ago

Isn't this called cold welding in space?