5 ms·

It's shiny but I think I'll stick to my upgradable RAM and two m2 slots + a RTX 3070ti and i7-12700H for a fraction of the price. Something at Apple broke when

by Kye 3y ago

It's shiny but I think I'll stick to my upgradable RAM and two m2 slots + a RTX 3070ti and i7-12700H for a fraction of the price. Something at Apple broke when they switched to their own silicon outside iPad and iPhone. They turned around the slow march toward parity on price:performance/RAM/storage and went screaming in the other direction. I really wanted to switch to mac when I was shopping for a new system earlier this year, but the prices were and remain ridiculous.

dmitrygr 3y ago
I tried to find a laptop with the specification you just mentioned that could last 20 hours on battery. Didn’t.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Yep. But, me and everyone I know keeps their laptops plugged in most of the time at work or at home, so not everyone needs all day battery life.
  - blep-arsh 3y ago
    I didn't care much about the battery life but not having to be tethered to the nearest wall wart is unexpectedly convenient even when working from home. I also appreciate the laptop not being a hot air blower.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      I use laptop at my desk at home or my desk at the office where the power cable is within reach so it's always plugged in. What use would be 20h of battery life for me? I don't do the whole coding in the coffee shop or on the beach lifestyle, and even if I did, 8h of battery life is plenty for that since I can't spend 20h in the coffee shop. There's probably a bunch of workers who are always on the road like contractors for whom this is a benefit.
      - blep-arsh 3y ago
        I'm not on the road, I just tend to move around even when at home/in the office. Lower power consumption also means the laptop is silent and barely warm, and a tiny 30W charger is perfectly sufficient. Unrelated, but another thing about the Macbook Pro is how unexpectedly good its mics, speakers, and camera are. I used to have quite an AV setup but I can't complain about the built-ins nowadays.
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >I'm not on the road, I just tend to move around even when at home/in the office. I don't. I only work at my desk as that's where I have the best ergonomy from height adjustment desk, chair, keyboard, mouse and large monitor on adjustable arm that give me the healthy posture I want for long session of deep work and focus. I can't understand how people can get work done hunched over their tiny laptop on the couch or kitchen table while getting a crooked neck/back, when that's what desks are meant to prevent. That's just not me, nor anyone I personally know.
- gtirloni 3y ago
  I'm personally always near a wall socket. My laptop is mostly a desktop. When I'm out and need to use the battery, it's only for a few hours. Do people really need >8h battery life?
  - nomel 3y ago
    I’ve never taken my charger to work with me. It was an odd experience the first week. I’ll never go back to plugs.
    - surge 3y ago
      I never either but that's cause I have USB-C docks at work.
      - MBCook 3y ago
        A Thunderbolt dock for a one-cable setup for everything is amazing. Power, video, peripherals, network, etc all with one little cable. I never wanna go back. I know some PCs can do it too. It’s just so much nicer than having to plug in two or five or eight cables. It doesn’t seem like a big thing if you only plug-in and unplugg once a day but it is.
  - jwells89 3y ago
    Long battery life isn’t strictly necessary no, but it’s nice. A lot nicer than one might expect. It can make the difference between needing to bring a charger or not, plus it’s one less mental background daemon to keep running (thinking about how much life is left, where the nearest outlet is, etc). Arguably the bigger impact of long battery life is how it’s no longer necessary to throttle the system when it’s unplugged to not burn through battery in an instant. The performance of plugged and unplugged is identical.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
    There are a lot of things people don’t need on average. But when you do need it, or you have a particular use case, well, then you need it. These comparisons are always based on raw performance numbers or price. Which isn’t useful.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Kye 3y ago
  This is a desktop replacement due to no room for a desktop. It's always plugged in. I have a nice iPhone for writing and making music on the go.
- speed_spread 3y ago
  What job do you have that requires you to work non stop for 20 hours away from a wall socket? I understand the need for autonomy but there are diminishing returns. It's ok to start looking at other decision factors past a certain point.
  - nomel 3y ago
    20 hours isn’t full CPu usage, of course. The last intel laptop I had lasted a couple hours. My M2 gets me through the workday.
  - filleduchaos 3y ago
    People don't only use their laptops for work. People also don't all sit at a single desk throughout the day. Not to mention that you can cut most laptops' rated battery lives in half or even worse if you're doing anything moderately demanding, and that those demanding workloads often cause them to throttle pretty badly when on battery power, so it's not a simple question of "X hour battery life". A high-spec laptop that's actually autonomous for daily use (from weight to screen quality to battery life) and does not turn into a radiator or a turbine when it's being put through its paces should be a reasonable enough value proposition for anyone to understand even if they personally don't want it; I don't understand why people are always so eager to snidely bring up devices that don't meet those criteria whenever Macbooks are mentioned.
- coffeebeqn 3y ago
  With a 3070? Unless you have a backpack with a battery that’s completely unreasonable to expect. External battery packs that plug into USB-C are actually pretty small and affordable and easily 3x the battery capacity
- d3w4s9 3y ago
  That's true, however I realized I personally don't actually need > 6hr battery life in a laptop, like, ever. There is always an outlet near me, and the charger & cable are small enough to easily carry around. If I am on a trip, well the same charger can be used to charge my phone and other devices, so I am not packing more than I would have otherwise. Why do I need to worry about battery life? P.S. both you and I know that the 20 hour number is not real.
killerdhmo 3y ago
You know they announced a price cut right?
- minimaxir 3y ago
  The price cut is the new starting model with just the M3 as a new SKU. The old comparible SKUs are about the same.
  - goosedragons 3y ago
    It's arguably also a price increase over the outgoing 13" M2 MBP model it replaces which was $1300.
    - Toutouxc 3y ago
      It doesn't really replace the 13" MBP. That was a weird in-between relic with the old screen, a TouchBar and a fan that the CPU didn't really need. Essentially an Air with a bunch of semi-useless upgrades. Both the actual 13" Air and the real 14" Pro were significantly better, more focused machines.
      - goosedragons 3y ago
        It does because it's the low-end MBP with the base M chip. The 14" M3 has a fan too.
- icedchai 3y ago
  The low end "MacBook Pro" without a "pro" chip and only 8 gigs of RAM cannot seriously be considered a "pro" machine. That is a marketing gimmick.
  - Toutouxc 3y ago
    You only need to bump the RAM to 16 GB to get a nice, quiet, efficient dev machine, similar to an Air, but with the significantly better screen, speakers and longer battery life.
hcnews 3y ago
Would be interested in a link to a model if you have one handy!
- Kye 3y ago
  https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1746503-REG/lenovo_82rf000bus_16_legion_5_pro.html https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1746503-REG/lenovo_82... B&H doesn't stock it anymore, but it looks like other places still sell it with updated specs.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  That could be any gaming laptop from any manufacturer., those are the only ones who still ship with upgradable RAM and dual M.2 slots.
  - Kye 3y ago
    Finding one with a decent screen for anything other than gaming is the trick. I linked it up there, but this is IPS with 100% sRGB, more brightness than most people need, 16:10 (vertical space is nice!), 165Hz, and matte! Most gaming laptops are...not that. Maybe 50% sRGB on a dim glossy TN screen.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >Most gaming laptops are...not that. Then you haven't been looking close enough. Cheapo gaming laptops yes, but Lenovo Legion, Asus G14 plus most other more premium models from other manufacturers have very good screens.
    - Daneel_ 3y ago
      Lenovo Thinkpads? You can absolutely have two m2 slots with a good screen and a solid graphics card. https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_P1_Gen_6 https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_P1_Gen_6
    - TastyFossil 3y ago
      I think any midrange gaming laptop in 2023 has that plus much better response times compared to apple laptops
faeriechangling 3y ago
People have never bought Apple because of the hardware. They buy it because of the software, the aesthetics, the label, the support (It's easier to find an Apple repair shop than repair shops for any other brand anywhere in the world), and the integration with Apple's services. Comparing spec to spec is missing the point. Also while this is niche, at the high end (M3 max + 128gb) you end up with a laptop that can literally just do things no Nvidia laptop can do right now due to the gobs of memory directly addressable by the GPU. I'm not saying 99.9% of people are going to take advantage of it, but it is a thing.
- tapanjk 3y ago
  > People have never bought Apple because of the hardware. Actually, a lot of people do. Here's one famous example [1], and I also know people in my network who love their MacBooks for the hardware. [1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/08/linus-torvalds-uses-an-arm-powered-m2-macbook-air-to-release-latest-linux-kernel/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/08/linus-torvalds-uses-...
- kfajdsl 3y ago
  > People have never bought Apple because of the hardware Hardware was the primary reason for me buying an M2 MBP. I've been primarily a Linux user for years, but I bought a MBP after my ThinkPad T14s just died and became completely unresponsive in the middle of a work day. The screen is gorgeous, the trackpad is great, the keyboard is decent, but the battery life is incredible. My ThinkPad was advertised to have a 12 hour battery life, but I'd be lucky to get 8. I can go nearly two days without charging my MBP. I don't love macOS though. I had to install several third party apps to get basics like window snapping and a middle click, but I'm mostly okay since I just swap between Emacs and Chrome. Once Asahi gets DP over USB-C support though, I'll probably switch.

by Kye 3y ago

dmitrygr 3y ago

I tried to find a laptop with the specification you just mentioned that could last 20 hours on battery. Didn’t.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Yep. But, me and everyone I know keeps their laptops plugged in most of the time at work or at home, so not everyone needs all day battery life.
- blep-arsh 3y ago
  I didn't care much about the battery life but not having to be tethered to the nearest wall wart is unexpectedly convenient even when working from home. I also appreciate the laptop not being a hot air blower.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    I use laptop at my desk at home or my desk at the office where the power cable is within reach so it's always plugged in. What use would be 20h of battery life for me? I don't do the whole coding in the coffee shop or on the beach lifestyle, and even if I did, 8h of battery life is plenty for that since I can't spend 20h in the coffee shop. There's probably a bunch of workers who are always on the road like contractors for whom this is a benefit.
    - blep-arsh 3y ago
      I'm not on the road, I just tend to move around even when at home/in the office. Lower power consumption also means the laptop is silent and barely warm, and a tiny 30W charger is perfectly sufficient. Unrelated, but another thing about the Macbook Pro is how unexpectedly good its mics, speakers, and camera are. I used to have quite an AV setup but I can't complain about the built-ins nowadays.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >I'm not on the road, I just tend to move around even when at home/in the office. I don't. I only work at my desk as that's where I have the best ergonomy from height adjustment desk, chair, keyboard, mouse and large monitor on adjustable arm that give me the healthy posture I want for long session of deep work and focus. I can't understand how people can get work done hunched over their tiny laptop on the couch or kitchen table while getting a crooked neck/back, when that's what desks are meant to prevent. That's just not me, nor anyone I personally know.
gtirloni 3y ago
I'm personally always near a wall socket. My laptop is mostly a desktop. When I'm out and need to use the battery, it's only for a few hours. Do people really need >8h battery life?
- nomel 3y ago
  I’ve never taken my charger to work with me. It was an odd experience the first week. I’ll never go back to plugs.
  - surge 3y ago
    I never either but that's cause I have USB-C docks at work.
    - MBCook 3y ago
      A Thunderbolt dock for a one-cable setup for everything is amazing. Power, video, peripherals, network, etc all with one little cable. I never wanna go back. I know some PCs can do it too. It’s just so much nicer than having to plug in two or five or eight cables. It doesn’t seem like a big thing if you only plug-in and unplugg once a day but it is.
- jwells89 3y ago
  Long battery life isn’t strictly necessary no, but it’s nice. A lot nicer than one might expect. It can make the difference between needing to bring a charger or not, plus it’s one less mental background daemon to keep running (thinking about how much life is left, where the nearest outlet is, etc). Arguably the bigger impact of long battery life is how it’s no longer necessary to throttle the system when it’s unplugged to not burn through battery in an instant. The performance of plugged and unplugged is identical.
- 2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
  There are a lot of things people don’t need on average. But when you do need it, or you have a particular use case, well, then you need it. These comparisons are always based on raw performance numbers or price. Which isn’t useful.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Kye 3y ago
This is a desktop replacement due to no room for a desktop. It's always plugged in. I have a nice iPhone for writing and making music on the go.
speed_spread 3y ago
What job do you have that requires you to work non stop for 20 hours away from a wall socket? I understand the need for autonomy but there are diminishing returns. It's ok to start looking at other decision factors past a certain point.
- nomel 3y ago
  20 hours isn’t full CPu usage, of course. The last intel laptop I had lasted a couple hours. My M2 gets me through the workday.
- filleduchaos 3y ago
  People don't only use their laptops for work. People also don't all sit at a single desk throughout the day. Not to mention that you can cut most laptops' rated battery lives in half or even worse if you're doing anything moderately demanding, and that those demanding workloads often cause them to throttle pretty badly when on battery power, so it's not a simple question of "X hour battery life". A high-spec laptop that's actually autonomous for daily use (from weight to screen quality to battery life) and does not turn into a radiator or a turbine when it's being put through its paces should be a reasonable enough value proposition for anyone to understand even if they personally don't want it; I don't understand why people are always so eager to snidely bring up devices that don't meet those criteria whenever Macbooks are mentioned.
coffeebeqn 3y ago
With a 3070? Unless you have a backpack with a battery that’s completely unreasonable to expect. External battery packs that plug into USB-C are actually pretty small and affordable and easily 3x the battery capacity
d3w4s9 3y ago
That's true, however I realized I personally don't actually need > 6hr battery life in a laptop, like, ever. There is always an outlet near me, and the charger & cable are small enough to easily carry around. If I am on a trip, well the same charger can be used to charge my phone and other devices, so I am not packing more than I would have otherwise. Why do I need to worry about battery life? P.S. both you and I know that the 20 hour number is not real.

killerdhmo 3y ago

You know they announced a price cut right?

minimaxir 3y ago
The price cut is the new starting model with just the M3 as a new SKU. The old comparible SKUs are about the same.
- goosedragons 3y ago
  It's arguably also a price increase over the outgoing 13" M2 MBP model it replaces which was $1300.
  - Toutouxc 3y ago
    It doesn't really replace the 13" MBP. That was a weird in-between relic with the old screen, a TouchBar and a fan that the CPU didn't really need. Essentially an Air with a bunch of semi-useless upgrades. Both the actual 13" Air and the real 14" Pro were significantly better, more focused machines.
    - goosedragons 3y ago
      It does because it's the low-end MBP with the base M chip. The 14" M3 has a fan too.
icedchai 3y ago
The low end "MacBook Pro" without a "pro" chip and only 8 gigs of RAM cannot seriously be considered a "pro" machine. That is a marketing gimmick.
- Toutouxc 3y ago
  You only need to bump the RAM to 16 GB to get a nice, quiet, efficient dev machine, similar to an Air, but with the significantly better screen, speakers and longer battery life.

hcnews 3y ago

Would be interested in a link to a model if you have one handy!

Kye 3y ago
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1746503-REG/lenovo_82rf000bus_16_legion_5_pro.html https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1746503-REG/lenovo_82... B&H doesn't stock it anymore, but it looks like other places still sell it with updated specs.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
That could be any gaming laptop from any manufacturer., those are the only ones who still ship with upgradable RAM and dual M.2 slots.
- Kye 3y ago
  Finding one with a decent screen for anything other than gaming is the trick. I linked it up there, but this is IPS with 100% sRGB, more brightness than most people need, 16:10 (vertical space is nice!), 165Hz, and matte! Most gaming laptops are...not that. Maybe 50% sRGB on a dim glossy TN screen.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Most gaming laptops are...not that. Then you haven't been looking close enough. Cheapo gaming laptops yes, but Lenovo Legion, Asus G14 plus most other more premium models from other manufacturers have very good screens.
  - Daneel_ 3y ago
    Lenovo Thinkpads? You can absolutely have two m2 slots with a good screen and a solid graphics card. https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_P1_Gen_6 https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_P1_Gen_6
  - TastyFossil 3y ago
    I think any midrange gaming laptop in 2023 has that plus much better response times compared to apple laptops

faeriechangling 3y ago

People have never bought Apple because of the hardware. They buy it because of the software, the aesthetics, the label, the support (It's easier to find an Apple repair shop than repair shops for any other brand anywhere in the world), and the integration with Apple's services. Comparing spec to spec is missing the point. Also while this is niche, at the high end (M3 max + 128gb) you end up with a laptop that can literally just do things no Nvidia laptop can do right now due to the gobs of memory directly addressable by the GPU. I'm not saying 99.9% of people are going to take advantage of it, but it is a thing.

tapanjk 3y ago
> People have never bought Apple because of the hardware. Actually, a lot of people do. Here's one famous example [1], and I also know people in my network who love their MacBooks for the hardware. [1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/08/linus-torvalds-uses-an-arm-powered-m2-macbook-air-to-release-latest-linux-kernel/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/08/linus-torvalds-uses-...
kfajdsl 3y ago
> People have never bought Apple because of the hardware Hardware was the primary reason for me buying an M2 MBP. I've been primarily a Linux user for years, but I bought a MBP after my ThinkPad T14s just died and became completely unresponsive in the middle of a work day. The screen is gorgeous, the trackpad is great, the keyboard is decent, but the battery life is incredible. My ThinkPad was advertised to have a 12 hour battery life, but I'd be lucky to get 8. I can go nearly two days without charging my MBP. I don't love macOS though. I had to install several third party apps to get basics like window snapping and a middle click, but I'm mostly okay since I just swap between Emacs and Chrome. Once Asahi gets DP over USB-C support though, I'll probably switch.