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I haven't seen this as a hard rule in people. My experience of people on the spectrum is they often just want a good clear reason to follow rules that seem like

by lepus 3y ago

I haven't seen this as a hard rule in people. My experience of people on the spectrum is they often just want a good clear reason to follow rules that seem like nonsense like bowing to authority. Neurotypical people just intuitively know the pros and cons of certain social rules in a way that might take neurodiverse people more active thinking to get. In geekier cultures you run into a lot of people on the spectrum so if I remember something could be a problem then it's not a big deal for me to explain this kind of thing ahead of time in a respectful way that makes sense ("I bet if we suck up to this guy well enough we'll get more funding for our team") so we're on the same page even if they think it's dumb. It takes effort on both sides to bridge the gap.

JohnBooty 3y ago
My experience of people on the spectrum is they often just want a good clear reason to follow rules that seem like nonsense like bowing to authority. Spot on. I think this is a far more correct observation than any made by the author.
- Gigachad 3y ago
  Some of the time it’s because the rules can’t be said. “I picked him for the job because he is more attractive and has the same hobby as me” “I want you to do this thing which is illegal to knowingly do but if I don’t explicitly say it then it’s permissible” “I feel like you are faking sick days or being lazy but I don’t have any proof for this accusation so I just want to subtly imply it to pressure you in to changing”
  - JohnBooty 3y ago
    Yeah, that's a great point. Although, sometimes (usually) the benefit to an unwritten rule is so much more mundane and benign, right? Like, "we do it this way because it is just easier if all 500 employees don't make up their own individual rules on how to do it, because that cohesion has its own benefits and now we always know where the mop bucket is instead of looking in 500 different places, some of which are possibly a little more optimal" Generally a lot of jobs are pretty receptive to process improvements (they are a win for your boss, too) but it takes some social skill to sell those improvements and this is an area where those on the spectrum can struggle more often than average.
    - Gigachad 3y ago
      Yeah that's another big one. I'd think the neurotypical person is more likely to think "We put the bucket there because Jane said so, I don't really care" while the autistic person might be more likely to demand an explanation for why it's being put there when there is a seemingly more useful spot from their perspective. To which they might get a response of "Because I said so" as Jane doesn't feel like having to explain and argue every detail to everyone. Just putting the bucket in that spot is likely more productive than having a company wide debate on it's placement. There might not be any logical rules for it but it doesn't matter since it's placement is largely inconsequential.
      - JohnBooty 3y ago
        Yeah. And in a lot of cases Jane might actually be open to a better placement! The average Jane just wants things to go smoothly. But the autistic person might "demand" an answer or call the current placement "stupid" and actually just make an enemy out of Jane, and then everybody loses. This is in many ways unfair to the autistic person, because they don't know the unwritten social rules of how to bring something up constructively and helpfully. On the other hand, the relevant social rules are not terribly complicated here either and they're kind of learnable. Make an effort to understand (but don't demand) the current way before suggesting a change. Don't insult everybody by calling the current way stupid. Etc. And also Jane can't be an expert in every neurodivergent special need her reports might have. I used to work with a truly brilliant programmer with no filter. Surely he was on the spectrum though I don't know that for a fact. He would insult everybody else's work. Honestly, his was that much better. I swallowed my pride and learned to work with him and I like to think I helped him with some social aspects. He was actually a very sweet guy and we benefitted from his brilliant work. That is how it should always work, but unfortunately it's not, and to be honest (as terrible as this is to admit) if he was not a true 1-in-1000 unicorn engineer I really don't think I would have cared to make the effort.
nicoburns 3y ago
> My experience of people on the spectrum is they often just want a good clear reason to follow rules that seem like nonsense like bowing to authority I think that's usually correct. However, I would point out that does not constitute respecting the authority. The extra reason is needed because the authority is not respected unless judged to have earned that authority. Which is a very different attitude to the one I typically see from neurotypical people where it is often seen as a moral duty to respect an authority figure just because they have been given a position of authority by society.
- layer8 3y ago
  In general, respect needs to be earned, so I don’t quite agree that authority automatically implies respect for “neurotypical” people. To the degree that it is true, it might be because the fact that the person was put into a position of authority is taken as an indication that the person probably earned that authority, so is taken as a prior for their credences regarding that person. Also, respect doesn’t necessarily imply obedience or subservience.
  - nicoburns 3y ago
    > To the degree that it is true, it might be because the fact that the person was put into a position of authority is taken as an indication that the person probably earned that authority, so is taken as a prior for their credences regarding that person. Also, respect doesn’t necessarily imply obedience or subservience. Seems like a weak prior to me, as people are very frequently put into positions of authority despite not deserving it. To be fair, I think I would also start with such a prior, I would just weight it very weakly and would expect the person's behaviour and decision making to live up to the position they have been given.
- RHSman2 3y ago
  I worked with a very autistic chap once. The most incredible mind and considering his levels of autism he was very self aware. He said that he should be treated like a computer when it came to work. Clear instructions, no ambiguity and with a clear reason. If the reason did not make sense then that could be an issue and we would discuss.

by lepus 3y ago

JohnBooty 3y ago

My experience of people on the spectrum is they often just want a good clear reason to follow rules that seem like nonsense like bowing to authority. Spot on. I think this is a far more correct observation than any made by the author.

Gigachad 3y ago
Some of the time it’s because the rules can’t be said. “I picked him for the job because he is more attractive and has the same hobby as me” “I want you to do this thing which is illegal to knowingly do but if I don’t explicitly say it then it’s permissible” “I feel like you are faking sick days or being lazy but I don’t have any proof for this accusation so I just want to subtly imply it to pressure you in to changing”
- JohnBooty 3y ago
  Yeah, that's a great point. Although, sometimes (usually) the benefit to an unwritten rule is so much more mundane and benign, right? Like, "we do it this way because it is just easier if all 500 employees don't make up their own individual rules on how to do it, because that cohesion has its own benefits and now we always know where the mop bucket is instead of looking in 500 different places, some of which are possibly a little more optimal" Generally a lot of jobs are pretty receptive to process improvements (they are a win for your boss, too) but it takes some social skill to sell those improvements and this is an area where those on the spectrum can struggle more often than average.
  - Gigachad 3y ago
    Yeah that's another big one. I'd think the neurotypical person is more likely to think "We put the bucket there because Jane said so, I don't really care" while the autistic person might be more likely to demand an explanation for why it's being put there when there is a seemingly more useful spot from their perspective. To which they might get a response of "Because I said so" as Jane doesn't feel like having to explain and argue every detail to everyone. Just putting the bucket in that spot is likely more productive than having a company wide debate on it's placement. There might not be any logical rules for it but it doesn't matter since it's placement is largely inconsequential.
    - JohnBooty 3y ago
      Yeah. And in a lot of cases Jane might actually be open to a better placement! The average Jane just wants things to go smoothly. But the autistic person might "demand" an answer or call the current placement "stupid" and actually just make an enemy out of Jane, and then everybody loses. This is in many ways unfair to the autistic person, because they don't know the unwritten social rules of how to bring something up constructively and helpfully. On the other hand, the relevant social rules are not terribly complicated here either and they're kind of learnable. Make an effort to understand (but don't demand) the current way before suggesting a change. Don't insult everybody by calling the current way stupid. Etc. And also Jane can't be an expert in every neurodivergent special need her reports might have. I used to work with a truly brilliant programmer with no filter. Surely he was on the spectrum though I don't know that for a fact. He would insult everybody else's work. Honestly, his was that much better. I swallowed my pride and learned to work with him and I like to think I helped him with some social aspects. He was actually a very sweet guy and we benefitted from his brilliant work. That is how it should always work, but unfortunately it's not, and to be honest (as terrible as this is to admit) if he was not a true 1-in-1000 unicorn engineer I really don't think I would have cared to make the effort.

nicoburns 3y ago

> My experience of people on the spectrum is they often just want a good clear reason to follow rules that seem like nonsense like bowing to authority I think that's usually correct. However, I would point out that does not constitute respecting the authority. The extra reason is needed because the authority is not respected unless judged to have earned that authority. Which is a very different attitude to the one I typically see from neurotypical people where it is often seen as a moral duty to respect an authority figure just because they have been given a position of authority by society.

layer8 3y ago
In general, respect needs to be earned, so I don’t quite agree that authority automatically implies respect for “neurotypical” people. To the degree that it is true, it might be because the fact that the person was put into a position of authority is taken as an indication that the person probably earned that authority, so is taken as a prior for their credences regarding that person. Also, respect doesn’t necessarily imply obedience or subservience.
- nicoburns 3y ago
  > To the degree that it is true, it might be because the fact that the person was put into a position of authority is taken as an indication that the person probably earned that authority, so is taken as a prior for their credences regarding that person. Also, respect doesn’t necessarily imply obedience or subservience. Seems like a weak prior to me, as people are very frequently put into positions of authority despite not deserving it. To be fair, I think I would also start with such a prior, I would just weight it very weakly and would expect the person's behaviour and decision making to live up to the position they have been given.
RHSman2 3y ago
I worked with a very autistic chap once. The most incredible mind and considering his levels of autism he was very self aware. He said that he should be treated like a computer when it came to work. Clear instructions, no ambiguity and with a clear reason. If the reason did not make sense then that could be an issue and we would discuss.