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Yes, you are in a distinct but important group among software developers that would not be particularly well served by firm-specific union contracts. You should

Yes, you are in a distinct but important group among software developers that would not be particularly well served by firm-specific union contracts. You should support these efforts because they certainly don't harm your prospects, and they pave the way for a hiring hall model. Your situation is more like that of an established Hollywood actor or musician. And the collective bargaining model that makes sense for them - a hiring hall - would also make sense for your segment of the software sector (and startups). Many film/album productions are effectively run like startups, and it makes no sense to bargain a firm specific contract each time. Likewise with construction work, where the hiring hall model is widespread.

dogman144 3y ago
I’m not clear how I wouldn’t get my prospects harmed. More union -> less ease of hiring and negotiating for solo operators, less companies that will hire journeyman vs union shops. That tyranny of job hopping is available to everyone. I’m not special (having spent every day with my engineering skills haha) I just beefed up on negotiating and risk tolerance. Also I cant imagine how a startup scales if unions get involved. Or I guess another way - I do not understand your conclusion that a hiring hall (what is this…?) helps me at all. * Edit, clarifying: the crux I don’t understand from union tech people is it’s not like we’re miners, stuck in the same valley in WV by a variety of conditions, so might as all band together and fight Duke Energy. Or actors, tied to a few cities for their industry with a significant “on-prem” requirement. In tech, a new job and a better opportunity is a Signal/Slack DM or a LinkedIn search away. Close down one laptop and ship it back, open another shipped by an employer -> new future. IMO this is how it works going forward and only more so as fully digitized companies continue. I don’t see how a union helps here, and doesn’t add friction to me surviving in that medium. I feel that if I bought into the union perspective that the relationship with an employer is one worth shaping and locking in, it’s missing the point of a hyper-transactional, individualist economy that’s only getting more so. That to me is supporting an approach based on a faulty core premise, which seems very risky, excluding any benefits from the job hopping thing.
- cristiancavalli 3y ago
  > it’s missing the point of a hyper-transactional, individualist economy that’s only getting more so. This runs counter to the fact that we have seen a massive increase in labor organization and union activity over the last 5 years so I would consider rethinking that perspective. https://www.employmentlawworldview.com/recent-data-confirms-surge-in-union-activity-in-us-workplaces-us/ https://www.employmentlawworldview.com/recent-data-confirms-... https://news.gallup.com/poll/510281/unions-strengthening.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/510281/unions-strengthening.asp... > it’s not like we’re miners, stuck in the same valley in WV by a variety of conditions, so might as all band together and fight Duke Energy. Yes but your are subject to an increasingly consolidated group of employers that are all generally described as “near monopolies” by the stock market analysts themselves and as we saw with the credit tightening cycle startups only are a viable counterweight as an employer when credit is cheap. You are also increasingly subject to competing with people who live on and require far less money to live in the places they work outside of western developed nations. Any handwaving about “superior quality from the US” is just whistling past the graveyard as monopolistic corporations don’t have to care about quality. Anecdata: any post on HN complaining about a major corporations support — they don’t have to care about quality when they own the market. https://www.openmarketsinstitute.org/learn/monopoly-by-the-numbers https://www.openmarketsinstitute.org/learn/monopoly-by-the-n... “The US economy is at least 50% more concentrated today than in 2005, they write.” https://www.axios.com/2022/05/26/new-paper-finds-monopolies-contribute-to-inflation https://www.axios.com/2022/05/26/new-paper-finds-monopolies-... > Also I cant imagine how a startup scales if unions get involved. And yet data to that effect has been collected and found no visible impact on small business: https://www.princeton.edu/~davidlee/wp/unionbf.pdf https://www.princeton.edu/~davidlee/wp/unionbf.pdf
  - dogman144 3y ago
    An increase in labor activity correlates to the hyper-individualized, commoditized economy - as a reaction to it, yes. Will it impact it? I don’t think so. We are an information-product economy. The outcome of it is Product A/Business A can get swapped out by a few clicks from the user to Product B/Business B. And in the process the hyper-organized, powerful Union A can’t do anything about it. Yes, there are all sorts of economist side-channels you can get into on this topic, but suffice to say the user-choice and de-frictioning around that choice has never been so powerful, and unions are from an age and of an approach from before this happened. Maybe to your point, B2B software will get impacted by organized labor, ie where there are consequential vendor lock-ins. But from that angle - do I sign a vendor agreement with a union shop, and the likely delays and quirks on product features and support? I’m not sure I would. To my earlier point, the same dynamic benefits employees, why let a union slow that? As long as the user has as strong a choice on dictating revenue as it does currently, I’m not sure what point you’re making? Labor is a reaction but on the supply side, and no impact on the demand side which is what I’m referring to as the driver. To your second, you’re looking at a domestic employment market when the reality is an international one. I didn’t mention once my American-ness protects my income. But my global-ness and commitment to keeping that perspective, plus learning other (human) languages, does. In large I feel your response missed the point I’m making.

dogman144 3y ago

I’m not clear how I wouldn’t get my prospects harmed. More union -> less ease of hiring and negotiating for solo operators, less companies that will hire journeyman vs union shops. That tyranny of job hopping is available to everyone. I’m not special (having spent every day with my engineering skills haha) I just beefed up on negotiating and risk tolerance. Also I cant imagine how a startup scales if unions get involved. Or I guess another way - I do not understand your conclusion that a hiring hall (what is this…?) helps me at all. * Edit, clarifying: the crux I don’t understand from union tech people is it’s not like we’re miners, stuck in the same valley in WV by a variety of conditions, so might as all band together and fight Duke Energy. Or actors, tied to a few cities for their industry with a significant “on-prem” requirement. In tech, a new job and a better opportunity is a Signal/Slack DM or a LinkedIn search away. Close down one laptop and ship it back, open another shipped by an employer -> new future. IMO this is how it works going forward and only more so as fully digitized companies continue. I don’t see how a union helps here, and doesn’t add friction to me surviving in that medium. I feel that if I bought into the union perspective that the relationship with an employer is one worth shaping and locking in, it’s missing the point of a hyper-transactional, individualist economy that’s only getting more so. That to me is supporting an approach based on a faulty core premise, which seems very risky, excluding any benefits from the job hopping thing.

cristiancavalli 3y ago
> it’s missing the point of a hyper-transactional, individualist economy that’s only getting more so. This runs counter to the fact that we have seen a massive increase in labor organization and union activity over the last 5 years so I would consider rethinking that perspective. https://www.employmentlawworldview.com/recent-data-confirms-surge-in-union-activity-in-us-workplaces-us/ https://www.employmentlawworldview.com/recent-data-confirms-... https://news.gallup.com/poll/510281/unions-strengthening.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/510281/unions-strengthening.asp... > it’s not like we’re miners, stuck in the same valley in WV by a variety of conditions, so might as all band together and fight Duke Energy. Yes but your are subject to an increasingly consolidated group of employers that are all generally described as “near monopolies” by the stock market analysts themselves and as we saw with the credit tightening cycle startups only are a viable counterweight as an employer when credit is cheap. You are also increasingly subject to competing with people who live on and require far less money to live in the places they work outside of western developed nations. Any handwaving about “superior quality from the US” is just whistling past the graveyard as monopolistic corporations don’t have to care about quality. Anecdata: any post on HN complaining about a major corporations support — they don’t have to care about quality when they own the market. https://www.openmarketsinstitute.org/learn/monopoly-by-the-numbers https://www.openmarketsinstitute.org/learn/monopoly-by-the-n... “The US economy is at least 50% more concentrated today than in 2005, they write.” https://www.axios.com/2022/05/26/new-paper-finds-monopolies-contribute-to-inflation https://www.axios.com/2022/05/26/new-paper-finds-monopolies-... > Also I cant imagine how a startup scales if unions get involved. And yet data to that effect has been collected and found no visible impact on small business: https://www.princeton.edu/~davidlee/wp/unionbf.pdf https://www.princeton.edu/~davidlee/wp/unionbf.pdf
- dogman144 3y ago
  An increase in labor activity correlates to the hyper-individualized, commoditized economy - as a reaction to it, yes. Will it impact it? I don’t think so. We are an information-product economy. The outcome of it is Product A/Business A can get swapped out by a few clicks from the user to Product B/Business B. And in the process the hyper-organized, powerful Union A can’t do anything about it. Yes, there are all sorts of economist side-channels you can get into on this topic, but suffice to say the user-choice and de-frictioning around that choice has never been so powerful, and unions are from an age and of an approach from before this happened. Maybe to your point, B2B software will get impacted by organized labor, ie where there are consequential vendor lock-ins. But from that angle - do I sign a vendor agreement with a union shop, and the likely delays and quirks on product features and support? I’m not sure I would. To my earlier point, the same dynamic benefits employees, why let a union slow that? As long as the user has as strong a choice on dictating revenue as it does currently, I’m not sure what point you’re making? Labor is a reaction but on the supply side, and no impact on the demand side which is what I’m referring to as the driver. To your second, you’re looking at a domestic employment market when the reality is an international one. I didn’t mention once my American-ness protects my income. But my global-ness and commitment to keeping that perspective, plus learning other (human) languages, does. In large I feel your response missed the point I’m making.