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Unions are just groups of organized workers. How much did you invest in making the union democratic and effective for yourself and your peers? The onus is not e

Unions are just groups of organized workers. How much did you invest in making the union democratic and effective for yourself and your peers? The onus is not entirely on you but you do bear some responsibility. That said, I get where you are coming from. It's terrible when a peer gets elected to union office and decides to prioritize their relationship with management over their relationship with the people who elected them. And it's true, some unions in the U.S. have really degenerated after decades of hostility from employers and their political representatives in all branches of government (most notably, the judiciary and National Labor Relations Board). But constructive solution is to get involved in the union, rather than waiting for someone else to bargain a contract that will benefit you. Attend a training, become a steward, volunteer to bargain, consider running for union office. The alternative is to live under the petty tyranny of employers, hopping from job to job in the hope that market conditions for your labor don't deteriorate. If you're organizing a non-union employer, which I have done, you and your peers need to investigate how capable and committed to union democracy the officers are.

dogman144 3y ago
> The alternative is to live under the petty tyranny of employers, hopping from job to job I generally understand your point but the reality a union pitch has to provide a better answer for is that job hopping works out pretty well. I went from $28/hr part time to $350k TC, base $200k+ over 5 years of job hops early career and remote LCOL. For one, there’s not a lot of tyranny there and I don’t think a union would have brought me that comp. I know many other similar experiences from individuals who work this route too. For two, I did it via an ethical but transactional relationship with my employers. Unions still work on an old school mentality that a fair long term relationship is worth locking in. I’m aware the music might stop in eng comp at some point, and I’ve planned/risk managed for that too. If all unions can offer tech jobs is banding together and rise up the median conditions for everyone, while as a solo operator I can lock in early retirement, that’s a hard sell. For what it’s worth, I’m quite pro-union for jobs where it makes sense. But there is nothing in your argument that makes sense for a SWE hunting life-changing comp, which is quite doable still. Why put my family at risk to help everyone else go along to get along a bit better than the previous contract, if I can solve our lifetime financial future in a few years?
- bwestergard 3y ago
  Yes, you are in a distinct but important group among software developers that would not be particularly well served by firm-specific union contracts. You should support these efforts because they certainly don't harm your prospects, and they pave the way for a hiring hall model. Your situation is more like that of an established Hollywood actor or musician. And the collective bargaining model that makes sense for them - a hiring hall - would also make sense for your segment of the software sector (and startups). Many film/album productions are effectively run like startups, and it makes no sense to bargain a firm specific contract each time. Likewise with construction work, where the hiring hall model is widespread.
  - dogman144 3y ago
    I’m not clear how I wouldn’t get my prospects harmed. More union -> less ease of hiring and negotiating for solo operators, less companies that will hire journeyman vs union shops. That tyranny of job hopping is available to everyone. I’m not special (having spent every day with my engineering skills haha) I just beefed up on negotiating and risk tolerance. Also I cant imagine how a startup scales if unions get involved. Or I guess another way - I do not understand your conclusion that a hiring hall (what is this…?) helps me at all. * Edit, clarifying: the crux I don’t understand from union tech people is it’s not like we’re miners, stuck in the same valley in WV by a variety of conditions, so might as all band together and fight Duke Energy. Or actors, tied to a few cities for their industry with a significant “on-prem” requirement. In tech, a new job and a better opportunity is a Signal/Slack DM or a LinkedIn search away. Close down one laptop and ship it back, open another shipped by an employer -> new future. IMO this is how it works going forward and only more so as fully digitized companies continue. I don’t see how a union helps here, and doesn’t add friction to me surviving in that medium. I feel that if I bought into the union perspective that the relationship with an employer is one worth shaping and locking in, it’s missing the point of a hyper-transactional, individualist economy that’s only getting more so. That to me is supporting an approach based on a faulty core premise, which seems very risky, excluding any benefits from the job hopping thing.
    - 3y ago
gs17 3y ago
Why should they have to put in all the work to attempt (there is zero guarantee the union can be reformed and that trying to reform it will not result in retaliation) to make the union actually represent workers? Why is it their responsibility to fight both their employer and the union? Sure, it would be great if they could fix it, but there's no motivation to get so involved when you can sidestep the union like they mentioned and benefit more. > Some unions in the U.S. have really degenerated after decades of hostility from employers and their political representatives in all branches of government (most notably, the judiciary and National Labor Relations Board). Or things like a lot of peoples' only interaction with a union being "you can't do that yourself, pay our toll or else", "you can't get something you want, we're not working", or "we can't get rid of that bad employee" (not to mention public sector unions). To be fair, it's hard PR when "we got health insurance" doesn't matter to anyone outside the union, but a lot of unions have worked hard to have a poor public opinion. The big labor wins (we don't have to work in a coal mine 80 hours a week!) are taken for granted now.
- robswc 3y ago
  >to fight both their employer and the union Exactly my issue with Unions. Now you basically have two bosses. Unions are supposed to be on your side... and they are... until you don't agree with them. Reminds me of my time in college where it was all "we accept everyone and love diversity of thought" -- unless those thoughts were outside the window of "acceptable thoughts" and that window is not very big.
dantheman 3y ago
Unions are not just groups of organized workers they have extensive legal privileges, if they were just groups of people with no special legal rights people would object to them a lot less.
- kjkjadksj 3y ago
  Those legal rights are gained from being organized workers. No business wants a union. Thats the point.
- busterarm 3y ago
  I vividly remember when the local baker's union got a supermarket baker unfired for serially urinating in the cake batter because they used video footage to fire him and filming union members at work was against the union contract.
  - chasd00 3y ago
    my wife is a teacher, some of her coworkers get high in the parking lot before school. The teacher union is one of the most damaging unions in existence.
    - gs17 3y ago
      Public sector unions in general are not great. Police unions are probably much more damaging.
      - dantheman 3y ago
        Prison workers is even worse - their incentive is to have more prisoners.
    - busterarm 3y ago
      Yeah I grew up going to NYC's public schools which are famous for this shit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_center

dogman144 3y ago

> The alternative is to live under the petty tyranny of employers, hopping from job to job I generally understand your point but the reality a union pitch has to provide a better answer for is that job hopping works out pretty well. I went from $28/hr part time to $350k TC, base $200k+ over 5 years of job hops early career and remote LCOL. For one, there’s not a lot of tyranny there and I don’t think a union would have brought me that comp. I know many other similar experiences from individuals who work this route too. For two, I did it via an ethical but transactional relationship with my employers. Unions still work on an old school mentality that a fair long term relationship is worth locking in. I’m aware the music might stop in eng comp at some point, and I’ve planned/risk managed for that too. If all unions can offer tech jobs is banding together and rise up the median conditions for everyone, while as a solo operator I can lock in early retirement, that’s a hard sell. For what it’s worth, I’m quite pro-union for jobs where it makes sense. But there is nothing in your argument that makes sense for a SWE hunting life-changing comp, which is quite doable still. Why put my family at risk to help everyone else go along to get along a bit better than the previous contract, if I can solve our lifetime financial future in a few years?

bwestergard 3y ago
Yes, you are in a distinct but important group among software developers that would not be particularly well served by firm-specific union contracts. You should support these efforts because they certainly don't harm your prospects, and they pave the way for a hiring hall model. Your situation is more like that of an established Hollywood actor or musician. And the collective bargaining model that makes sense for them - a hiring hall - would also make sense for your segment of the software sector (and startups). Many film/album productions are effectively run like startups, and it makes no sense to bargain a firm specific contract each time. Likewise with construction work, where the hiring hall model is widespread.
- dogman144 3y ago
  I’m not clear how I wouldn’t get my prospects harmed. More union -> less ease of hiring and negotiating for solo operators, less companies that will hire journeyman vs union shops. That tyranny of job hopping is available to everyone. I’m not special (having spent every day with my engineering skills haha) I just beefed up on negotiating and risk tolerance. Also I cant imagine how a startup scales if unions get involved. Or I guess another way - I do not understand your conclusion that a hiring hall (what is this…?) helps me at all. * Edit, clarifying: the crux I don’t understand from union tech people is it’s not like we’re miners, stuck in the same valley in WV by a variety of conditions, so might as all band together and fight Duke Energy. Or actors, tied to a few cities for their industry with a significant “on-prem” requirement. In tech, a new job and a better opportunity is a Signal/Slack DM or a LinkedIn search away. Close down one laptop and ship it back, open another shipped by an employer -> new future. IMO this is how it works going forward and only more so as fully digitized companies continue. I don’t see how a union helps here, and doesn’t add friction to me surviving in that medium. I feel that if I bought into the union perspective that the relationship with an employer is one worth shaping and locking in, it’s missing the point of a hyper-transactional, individualist economy that’s only getting more so. That to me is supporting an approach based on a faulty core premise, which seems very risky, excluding any benefits from the job hopping thing.
  - 3y ago

gs17 3y ago

Why should they have to put in all the work to attempt (there is zero guarantee the union can be reformed and that trying to reform it will not result in retaliation) to make the union actually represent workers? Why is it their responsibility to fight both their employer and the union? Sure, it would be great if they could fix it, but there's no motivation to get so involved when you can sidestep the union like they mentioned and benefit more. > Some unions in the U.S. have really degenerated after decades of hostility from employers and their political representatives in all branches of government (most notably, the judiciary and National Labor Relations Board). Or things like a lot of peoples' only interaction with a union being "you can't do that yourself, pay our toll or else", "you can't get something you want, we're not working", or "we can't get rid of that bad employee" (not to mention public sector unions). To be fair, it's hard PR when "we got health insurance" doesn't matter to anyone outside the union, but a lot of unions have worked hard to have a poor public opinion. The big labor wins (we don't have to work in a coal mine 80 hours a week!) are taken for granted now.

robswc 3y ago
>to fight both their employer and the union Exactly my issue with Unions. Now you basically have two bosses. Unions are supposed to be on your side... and they are... until you don't agree with them. Reminds me of my time in college where it was all "we accept everyone and love diversity of thought" -- unless those thoughts were outside the window of "acceptable thoughts" and that window is not very big.

dantheman 3y ago

Unions are not just groups of organized workers they have extensive legal privileges, if they were just groups of people with no special legal rights people would object to them a lot less.

kjkjadksj 3y ago
Those legal rights are gained from being organized workers. No business wants a union. Thats the point.
busterarm 3y ago
I vividly remember when the local baker's union got a supermarket baker unfired for serially urinating in the cake batter because they used video footage to fire him and filming union members at work was against the union contract.
- chasd00 3y ago
  my wife is a teacher, some of her coworkers get high in the parking lot before school. The teacher union is one of the most damaging unions in existence.
  - gs17 3y ago
    Public sector unions in general are not great. Police unions are probably much more damaging.
    - dantheman 3y ago
      Prison workers is even worse - their incentive is to have more prisoners.
  - busterarm 3y ago
    Yeah I grew up going to NYC's public schools which are famous for this shit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_center