4 ms·

Are there power plants today that burn ammonia directly? If not, is it a simple/cheap enough conversion?

praveen9920 3y ago
It is actually cheaper because of existing infrastructure that exists for fertilisers manufacturing. But the main concern is that ammonia burns slowly. It might work in power plants but not in EVs
- thfuran 3y ago
  Why would you want to burn ammonia in an electric vehicle?
dexwiz 3y ago
Not sure if they are today, but Toyota is putting a lot of effort into ammonia turbines. Also ammonia can be fired with coal or natural gas in existing setups. The main issue is neutralization of NOx exhaust.
- ForgedEngine 3y ago
  Filter the exhaust through a caustic solution to neutralize NOxs.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
While not in mass production, there is strong interest from the marine shipping industry. It can be produced near ports, and meets the storage and combustion engine constraints (similar to diesel) of the use case. https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betting-big-on-ammonia https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betti... https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/30-06-2020-world-s-first-full-scale-ammonia-engine-test---an-important-step-towards-carbon-free-shipping-2737809 https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/30-06-2020-world-s-first... https://www.lr.org/en/about-us/press-listing/press-release/industry-leaders-join-forces-on-ammonia-fuelled-tanker-project/ https://www.lr.org/en/about-us/press-listing/press-release/i... https://www.ammoniaenergy.org/articles/maritime-fuel-mix-could-be-25-ammonia-by-2050/ https://www.ammoniaenergy.org/articles/maritime-fuel-mix-cou...
- Terr_ 3y ago
  A sibling comment mentions scrubbing NOx emissions as a significant issue, and it strikes me that the shipping/cruise industry is already a major polluter in that area. (Unlike cars, which must have catalytic converters because of local landlubber laws.)
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    High efficiency scrubbing appears to be feasible. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.energyfuels.3c01419 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.energyfuels.3c01419
    - Terr_ 3y ago
      I guess my point is that cleaner technology is already being avoided by those companies, because they can save a buck by polluting in international waters.
  - ForgedEngine 3y ago
    NOxs are practically zero with HCCI at a stoichiometric ratio.
adrian_b 3y ago
There has been a lot of research in fuel cells that generate electricity from ammonia, with much simpler storage problems than for hydrogen.
- Projectiboga 3y ago
  Yes, fuel cells need more usage as we move away from oil & unnatural gas.
  - galangalalgol 3y ago
    Direct propane fuel cells have some thermal issues, but recently there was a breakthrough in propane synthesis that would make it efficient to produce. Are ammonia fuelcells efficient?
- aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
  I'm not sure I'd leap to "much simpler storage problems than for hydrogen" for a highly corrosive gas. The lower explosive limit of hydrogen is ~4%. By comparison the 300 ppm immediate danger to life and health threshold of ammonia is .03%. It is intrinsically dangerous, i.e. without a source of ignition, at concentrations 2 orders of magnitude lower than the LEL of hydrogen. Not every hydrogen leak is a concern, but just about every ammonia leak is. The established OSHA 15 minute exposure limit for ammonia is 35 ppm, 8 hours is 25 ppm.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    But hydrogen likes to make invisible fires and leak through solid steel, and it needs to be ludicrously cold to liquify.
    - aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
      Generally speaking modern hydrogen pressure vessels are not metal for this reason, they are composite and not affected by embrittlement. The Toyota Mirai, a production hydrogen car, uses a type IV carbon fiber pressure vessel rated for 70 MPa / 10,000 psi. Type V are rated for 15,000 psi. It is not necessary to liquefy hydrogen for adequate range in ground transport applications: The Mirai yields a 402 mile EPA rated range on gaseous hydrogen. The tanks weigh 93kg filled with 5.65kg hydrogen, yielding an approximately 190 kWh of stored energy. All without corroding flesh in trace concentrations. By comparison the Tesla Roadster's 450kg battery pack yields a 200 kWh capacity. Ammonia is and would likely continue to be stored in metal pressure vessels as an obvious cost optimization and thus would compare unfavorably to hydrogen pressure vessels' effective energy density where that area of the performance versus cost optimization space is not available due to embrittlement.
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
In Japan they're looking at adding Ammonia co-firing to coal plants: https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-strategy-a-costly-approach-to-decarbonization-renewables-present-more-economic-alternative/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-st...
pfdietz 3y ago
I think many (most?) combined cycle plants use ammonia to destroy NOx in the exhaust (selective catalytic reduction). Some diesel cars use this technology as well (using urea instead of ammonia).

It is actually cheaper because of existing infrastructure that exists for fertilisers manufacturing. But the main concern is that ammonia burns slowly. It might work in power plants but not in EVs

thfuran 3y ago
Why would you want to burn ammonia in an electric vehicle?

dexwiz 3y ago

Not sure if they are today, but Toyota is putting a lot of effort into ammonia turbines. Also ammonia can be fired with coal or natural gas in existing setups. The main issue is neutralization of NOx exhaust.

ForgedEngine 3y ago
Filter the exhaust through a caustic solution to neutralize NOxs.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

While not in mass production, there is strong interest from the marine shipping industry. It can be produced near ports, and meets the storage and combustion engine constraints (similar to diesel) of the use case. https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betting-big-on-ammonia https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betti... https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/30-06-2020-world-s-first-full-scale-ammonia-engine-test---an-important-step-towards-carbon-free-shipping-2737809 https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/30-06-2020-world-s-first... https://www.lr.org/en/about-us/press-listing/press-release/industry-leaders-join-forces-on-ammonia-fuelled-tanker-project/ https://www.lr.org/en/about-us/press-listing/press-release/i... https://www.ammoniaenergy.org/articles/maritime-fuel-mix-could-be-25-ammonia-by-2050/ https://www.ammoniaenergy.org/articles/maritime-fuel-mix-cou...

Terr_ 3y ago
A sibling comment mentions scrubbing NOx emissions as a significant issue, and it strikes me that the shipping/cruise industry is already a major polluter in that area. (Unlike cars, which must have catalytic converters because of local landlubber laws.)
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  High efficiency scrubbing appears to be feasible. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.energyfuels.3c01419 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.energyfuels.3c01419
  - Terr_ 3y ago
    I guess my point is that cleaner technology is already being avoided by those companies, because they can save a buck by polluting in international waters.
- ForgedEngine 3y ago
  NOxs are practically zero with HCCI at a stoichiometric ratio.

adrian_b 3y ago

There has been a lot of research in fuel cells that generate electricity from ammonia, with much simpler storage problems than for hydrogen.

Projectiboga 3y ago
Yes, fuel cells need more usage as we move away from oil & unnatural gas.
- galangalalgol 3y ago
  Direct propane fuel cells have some thermal issues, but recently there was a breakthrough in propane synthesis that would make it efficient to produce. Are ammonia fuelcells efficient?
aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
I'm not sure I'd leap to "much simpler storage problems than for hydrogen" for a highly corrosive gas. The lower explosive limit of hydrogen is ~4%. By comparison the 300 ppm immediate danger to life and health threshold of ammonia is .03%. It is intrinsically dangerous, i.e. without a source of ignition, at concentrations 2 orders of magnitude lower than the LEL of hydrogen. Not every hydrogen leak is a concern, but just about every ammonia leak is. The established OSHA 15 minute exposure limit for ammonia is 35 ppm, 8 hours is 25 ppm.
- thfuran 3y ago
  But hydrogen likes to make invisible fires and leak through solid steel, and it needs to be ludicrously cold to liquify.
  - aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
    Generally speaking modern hydrogen pressure vessels are not metal for this reason, they are composite and not affected by embrittlement. The Toyota Mirai, a production hydrogen car, uses a type IV carbon fiber pressure vessel rated for 70 MPa / 10,000 psi. Type V are rated for 15,000 psi. It is not necessary to liquefy hydrogen for adequate range in ground transport applications: The Mirai yields a 402 mile EPA rated range on gaseous hydrogen. The tanks weigh 93kg filled with 5.65kg hydrogen, yielding an approximately 190 kWh of stored energy. All without corroding flesh in trace concentrations. By comparison the Tesla Roadster's 450kg battery pack yields a 200 kWh capacity. Ammonia is and would likely continue to be stored in metal pressure vessels as an obvious cost optimization and thus would compare unfavorably to hydrogen pressure vessels' effective energy density where that area of the performance versus cost optimization space is not available due to embrittlement.

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

In Japan they're looking at adding Ammonia co-firing to coal plants: https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-strategy-a-costly-approach-to-decarbonization-renewables-present-more-economic-alternative/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-st...

pfdietz 3y ago

I think many (most?) combined cycle plants use ammonia to destroy NOx in the exhaust (selective catalytic reduction). Some diesel cars use this technology as well (using urea instead of ammonia).