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Not just fertilizer: "In addition to its use in the fertilizer and chemical industries, ammonia is currently seen as a potential replacement for carbon-based f

Not just fertilizer: "In addition to its use in the fertilizer and chemical industries, ammonia is currently seen as a potential replacement for carbon-based fuels and as a carrier for worldwide transportation of renewable energy." Long-term grid storage? Publication: 22 July 2022 Anyone know if maybe some pilot / small scale production facility has been set up in the mean time? I've read about a farm that produced its own fertilizer, but dunno whether that uses this or some older / unrelated process. Would be a huge breakthrough in any case.

fbdab103 3y ago
Are there power plants today that burn ammonia directly? If not, is it a simple/cheap enough conversion?
- praveen9920 3y ago
  It is actually cheaper because of existing infrastructure that exists for fertilisers manufacturing. But the main concern is that ammonia burns slowly. It might work in power plants but not in EVs
  - thfuran 3y ago
    Why would you want to burn ammonia in an electric vehicle?
- dexwiz 3y ago
  Not sure if they are today, but Toyota is putting a lot of effort into ammonia turbines. Also ammonia can be fired with coal or natural gas in existing setups. The main issue is neutralization of NOx exhaust.
  - ForgedEngine 3y ago
    Filter the exhaust through a caustic solution to neutralize NOxs.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  While not in mass production, there is strong interest from the marine shipping industry. It can be produced near ports, and meets the storage and combustion engine constraints (similar to diesel) of the use case. https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betting-big-on-ammonia https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betti... https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/30-06-2020-world-s-first-full-scale-ammonia-engine-test---an-important-step-towards-carbon-free-shipping-2737809 https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/30-06-2020-world-s-first... https://www.lr.org/en/about-us/press-listing/press-release/industry-leaders-join-forces-on-ammonia-fuelled-tanker-project/ https://www.lr.org/en/about-us/press-listing/press-release/i... https://www.ammoniaenergy.org/articles/maritime-fuel-mix-could-be-25-ammonia-by-2050/ https://www.ammoniaenergy.org/articles/maritime-fuel-mix-cou...
  - Terr_ 3y ago
    A sibling comment mentions scrubbing NOx emissions as a significant issue, and it strikes me that the shipping/cruise industry is already a major polluter in that area. (Unlike cars, which must have catalytic converters because of local landlubber laws.)
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      High efficiency scrubbing appears to be feasible. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.energyfuels.3c01419 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.energyfuels.3c01419
      - Terr_ 3y ago
        I guess my point is that cleaner technology is already being avoided by those companies, because they can save a buck by polluting in international waters.
    - ForgedEngine 3y ago
      NOxs are practically zero with HCCI at a stoichiometric ratio.
- adrian_b 3y ago
  There has been a lot of research in fuel cells that generate electricity from ammonia, with much simpler storage problems than for hydrogen.
  - Projectiboga 3y ago
    Yes, fuel cells need more usage as we move away from oil & unnatural gas.
    - galangalalgol 3y ago
      Direct propane fuel cells have some thermal issues, but recently there was a breakthrough in propane synthesis that would make it efficient to produce. Are ammonia fuelcells efficient?
  - aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
    I'm not sure I'd leap to "much simpler storage problems than for hydrogen" for a highly corrosive gas. The lower explosive limit of hydrogen is ~4%. By comparison the 300 ppm immediate danger to life and health threshold of ammonia is .03%. It is intrinsically dangerous, i.e. without a source of ignition, at concentrations 2 orders of magnitude lower than the LEL of hydrogen. Not every hydrogen leak is a concern, but just about every ammonia leak is. The established OSHA 15 minute exposure limit for ammonia is 35 ppm, 8 hours is 25 ppm.
    - thfuran 3y ago
      But hydrogen likes to make invisible fires and leak through solid steel, and it needs to be ludicrously cold to liquify.
      - aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
        Generally speaking modern hydrogen pressure vessels are not metal for this reason, they are composite and not affected by embrittlement. The Toyota Mirai, a production hydrogen car, uses a type IV carbon fiber pressure vessel rated for 70 MPa / 10,000 psi. Type V are rated for 15,000 psi. It is not necessary to liquefy hydrogen for adequate range in ground transport applications: The Mirai yields a 402 mile EPA rated range on gaseous hydrogen. The tanks weigh 93kg filled with 5.65kg hydrogen, yielding an approximately 190 kWh of stored energy. All without corroding flesh in trace concentrations. By comparison the Tesla Roadster's 450kg battery pack yields a 200 kWh capacity. Ammonia is and would likely continue to be stored in metal pressure vessels as an obvious cost optimization and thus would compare unfavorably to hydrogen pressure vessels' effective energy density where that area of the performance versus cost optimization space is not available due to embrittlement.
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  In Japan they're looking at adding Ammonia co-firing to coal plants: https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-strategy-a-costly-approach-to-decarbonization-renewables-present-more-economic-alternative/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-st...
- pfdietz 3y ago
  I think many (most?) combined cycle plants use ammonia to destroy NOx in the exhaust (selective catalytic reduction). Some diesel cars use this technology as well (using urea instead of ammonia).
jtbayly 3y ago
Farms have been producing their own fertilizer for centuries. ;-)
- multiplegeorges 3y ago
  Millenia, even.
- RetroTechie 3y ago
  Yeah I know. Wasn't talking about that. https://phys.org/news/2021-02-plasma-technology-world.html https://phys.org/news/2021-02-plasma-technology-world.html https://portal.nifa.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/1025777-low-cost-plasma-reactors-for-on-farm-nitrogen-fixation.html https://portal.nifa.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/1025777-lo... https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acssuschemeng.2c06357 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acssuschemeng.2c06357 (paywalled) "plasma" and "NOx" seem to be the keywords here (so other process than discussed here). Not at scale (yet), cost unclear. But the technology exists, and being improved upon.
- eternauta3k 3y ago
  Yes, and yields were crap back then. Guano and then synthetic fertilizer changed everything.
bequanna 3y ago
Well, we don't necessarily need as much storage if we can just shift a good amount of demand. Fertilizer production via this method might be a good fit for times when rates are low or even negative due to wind energy overproduction during off peak.
aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
Where are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up? They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel industry can lobby for strapped to our bum. I guess the notion has passed so quickly we haven't had time for the media to program us with corporate agendas...
- PumpkinSpice 3y ago
  I don't think it's realistic as a fuel for cars, but "worldwide transportation" means more than that. I suspect they're talking about container ships, tankers, and such. Ammonia is easier to liquify than hydrogen, and is in many respects easier to handle. However, it's definitely not something you want to have a spill of at a gas station or in your garage, and for that reason, it probably won't have "consumer" uses. As far as industrial gasses go, it's certainly nowhere near the worst, and there's plenty of ammonia tankers on the roads today, but large spills do kill people every now and then.
  - aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
    It is certainly easier to liquefy, I can't argue that point.
  - justinclift 3y ago
    Hmmm, "gas station filled with petrol that explodes" vs "gas station filled with hydrogen that explodes". Being near either one as it explodes would be bad, but I wonder which one looks more impressive movie-effects-wise? :)
    - sfink 3y ago
      In my limited understanding, neither one really explodes. The petrol one would look like a huge impressive fireball that launches a big black mushroom cloud and then just burns like crazy. The hydrogen one, if the hydrogen is fairly pure, would be like a big faint blue wispy fireball, not all that impressive. If there were an oxidizer in the mix somehow, it would be rather more explosive.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
cornholio 3y ago
The Haber Bosch reaction does not produce any CO2: N2 + 3H2 -> 2NH3 The challenge is getting the zero emission Hydrogen. The process presented here is somewhat better than using electricity for the electrolysis split water, but still substantially more expensive than the gray Hydrogen obtain by cracking Methane gas and releasing the CO2.
- pfdietz 3y ago
  Where did you conclude it was somewhat better than using electricity for electrolysis?
  - cornholio 3y ago
    I took the author's claim of 100% electrolytic efficiency at face value and contrasted with typical water electrolysis efficiencies, followed by a Haber-Bosch step. This method of direct electroreduction should not confused with the Laser-induced method discussed elsewhere in the thread, which has abysmal numbers.
    - pfdietz 3y ago
      The 100% efficiency is faradaic efficiency, not energy efficiency, I believe.
PaulHoule 3y ago
The strangest thing is that Japan is thinking about burning ammonia together with coal https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-strategy-a-costly-approach-to-decarbonization-renewables-present-more-economic-alternative/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-st... which I just can't imagine being clean when I consider that nitrogen oxides are also a concern with combustion fuels, not to mention it being an inefficient "battery" if you're making ammonia from green hydrogen and then burning it and spinning a turbine.

fbdab103 3y ago

Are there power plants today that burn ammonia directly? If not, is it a simple/cheap enough conversion?

praveen9920 3y ago
It is actually cheaper because of existing infrastructure that exists for fertilisers manufacturing. But the main concern is that ammonia burns slowly. It might work in power plants but not in EVs
- thfuran 3y ago
  Why would you want to burn ammonia in an electric vehicle?
dexwiz 3y ago
Not sure if they are today, but Toyota is putting a lot of effort into ammonia turbines. Also ammonia can be fired with coal or natural gas in existing setups. The main issue is neutralization of NOx exhaust.
- ForgedEngine 3y ago
  Filter the exhaust through a caustic solution to neutralize NOxs.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
While not in mass production, there is strong interest from the marine shipping industry. It can be produced near ports, and meets the storage and combustion engine constraints (similar to diesel) of the use case. https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betting-big-on-ammonia https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betti... https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/30-06-2020-world-s-first-full-scale-ammonia-engine-test---an-important-step-towards-carbon-free-shipping-2737809 https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/30-06-2020-world-s-first... https://www.lr.org/en/about-us/press-listing/press-release/industry-leaders-join-forces-on-ammonia-fuelled-tanker-project/ https://www.lr.org/en/about-us/press-listing/press-release/i... https://www.ammoniaenergy.org/articles/maritime-fuel-mix-could-be-25-ammonia-by-2050/ https://www.ammoniaenergy.org/articles/maritime-fuel-mix-cou...
- Terr_ 3y ago
  A sibling comment mentions scrubbing NOx emissions as a significant issue, and it strikes me that the shipping/cruise industry is already a major polluter in that area. (Unlike cars, which must have catalytic converters because of local landlubber laws.)
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    High efficiency scrubbing appears to be feasible. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.energyfuels.3c01419 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.energyfuels.3c01419
    - Terr_ 3y ago
      I guess my point is that cleaner technology is already being avoided by those companies, because they can save a buck by polluting in international waters.
  - ForgedEngine 3y ago
    NOxs are practically zero with HCCI at a stoichiometric ratio.
adrian_b 3y ago
There has been a lot of research in fuel cells that generate electricity from ammonia, with much simpler storage problems than for hydrogen.
- Projectiboga 3y ago
  Yes, fuel cells need more usage as we move away from oil & unnatural gas.
  - galangalalgol 3y ago
    Direct propane fuel cells have some thermal issues, but recently there was a breakthrough in propane synthesis that would make it efficient to produce. Are ammonia fuelcells efficient?
- aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
  I'm not sure I'd leap to "much simpler storage problems than for hydrogen" for a highly corrosive gas. The lower explosive limit of hydrogen is ~4%. By comparison the 300 ppm immediate danger to life and health threshold of ammonia is .03%. It is intrinsically dangerous, i.e. without a source of ignition, at concentrations 2 orders of magnitude lower than the LEL of hydrogen. Not every hydrogen leak is a concern, but just about every ammonia leak is. The established OSHA 15 minute exposure limit for ammonia is 35 ppm, 8 hours is 25 ppm.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    But hydrogen likes to make invisible fires and leak through solid steel, and it needs to be ludicrously cold to liquify.
    - aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
      Generally speaking modern hydrogen pressure vessels are not metal for this reason, they are composite and not affected by embrittlement. The Toyota Mirai, a production hydrogen car, uses a type IV carbon fiber pressure vessel rated for 70 MPa / 10,000 psi. Type V are rated for 15,000 psi. It is not necessary to liquefy hydrogen for adequate range in ground transport applications: The Mirai yields a 402 mile EPA rated range on gaseous hydrogen. The tanks weigh 93kg filled with 5.65kg hydrogen, yielding an approximately 190 kWh of stored energy. All without corroding flesh in trace concentrations. By comparison the Tesla Roadster's 450kg battery pack yields a 200 kWh capacity. Ammonia is and would likely continue to be stored in metal pressure vessels as an obvious cost optimization and thus would compare unfavorably to hydrogen pressure vessels' effective energy density where that area of the performance versus cost optimization space is not available due to embrittlement.
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
In Japan they're looking at adding Ammonia co-firing to coal plants: https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-strategy-a-costly-approach-to-decarbonization-renewables-present-more-economic-alternative/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-st...
pfdietz 3y ago
I think many (most?) combined cycle plants use ammonia to destroy NOx in the exhaust (selective catalytic reduction). Some diesel cars use this technology as well (using urea instead of ammonia).

jtbayly 3y ago

Farms have been producing their own fertilizer for centuries. ;-)

multiplegeorges 3y ago
Millenia, even.
RetroTechie 3y ago
Yeah I know. Wasn't talking about that. https://phys.org/news/2021-02-plasma-technology-world.html https://phys.org/news/2021-02-plasma-technology-world.html https://portal.nifa.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/1025777-low-cost-plasma-reactors-for-on-farm-nitrogen-fixation.html https://portal.nifa.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/1025777-lo... https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acssuschemeng.2c06357 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acssuschemeng.2c06357 (paywalled) "plasma" and "NOx" seem to be the keywords here (so other process than discussed here). Not at scale (yet), cost unclear. But the technology exists, and being improved upon.
eternauta3k 3y ago
Yes, and yields were crap back then. Guano and then synthetic fertilizer changed everything.

bequanna 3y ago

Well, we don't necessarily need as much storage if we can just shift a good amount of demand. Fertilizer production via this method might be a good fit for times when rates are low or even negative due to wind energy overproduction during off peak.

aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago

Where are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up? They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel industry can lobby for strapped to our bum. I guess the notion has passed so quickly we haven't had time for the media to program us with corporate agendas...

PumpkinSpice 3y ago
I don't think it's realistic as a fuel for cars, but "worldwide transportation" means more than that. I suspect they're talking about container ships, tankers, and such. Ammonia is easier to liquify than hydrogen, and is in many respects easier to handle. However, it's definitely not something you want to have a spill of at a gas station or in your garage, and for that reason, it probably won't have "consumer" uses. As far as industrial gasses go, it's certainly nowhere near the worst, and there's plenty of ammonia tankers on the roads today, but large spills do kill people every now and then.
- aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
  It is certainly easier to liquefy, I can't argue that point.
- justinclift 3y ago
  Hmmm, "gas station filled with petrol that explodes" vs "gas station filled with hydrogen that explodes". Being near either one as it explodes would be bad, but I wonder which one looks more impressive movie-effects-wise? :)
  - sfink 3y ago
    In my limited understanding, neither one really explodes. The petrol one would look like a huge impressive fireball that launches a big black mushroom cloud and then just burns like crazy. The hydrogen one, if the hydrogen is fairly pure, would be like a big faint blue wispy fireball, not all that impressive. If there were an oxidizer in the mix somehow, it would be rather more explosive.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

cornholio 3y ago

The Haber Bosch reaction does not produce any CO2: N2 + 3H2 -> 2NH3 The challenge is getting the zero emission Hydrogen. The process presented here is somewhat better than using electricity for the electrolysis split water, but still substantially more expensive than the gray Hydrogen obtain by cracking Methane gas and releasing the CO2.

pfdietz 3y ago
Where did you conclude it was somewhat better than using electricity for electrolysis?
- cornholio 3y ago
  I took the author's claim of 100% electrolytic efficiency at face value and contrasted with typical water electrolysis efficiencies, followed by a Haber-Bosch step. This method of direct electroreduction should not confused with the Laser-induced method discussed elsewhere in the thread, which has abysmal numbers.
  - pfdietz 3y ago
    The 100% efficiency is faradaic efficiency, not energy efficiency, I believe.

PaulHoule 3y ago

The strangest thing is that Japan is thinking about burning ammonia together with coal https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-strategy-a-costly-approach-to-decarbonization-renewables-present-more-economic-alternative/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-st... which I just can't imagine being clean when I consider that nitrogen oxides are also a concern with combustion fuels, not to mention it being an inefficient "battery" if you're making ammonia from green hydrogen and then burning it and spinning a turbine.