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Big if true... This could enable fertilizer production with no CO2 emissions. The numbers in the paper suggest that it might prove cheaper than natural gas ba
by londons_explore 3y ago
Big if true...
This could enable fertilizer production with no CO2 emissions. The numbers in the paper suggest that it might prove cheaper than natural gas based production which is common today. Fertilizer production is 2.1% of all CO2 emissions right now.
- RetroTechie 3y agoNot just fertilizer: "In addition to its use in the fertilizer and chemical industries, ammonia is currently seen as a potential replacement for carbon-based fuels and as a carrier for worldwide transportation of renewable energy." Long-term grid storage? Publication: 22 July 2022 Anyone know if maybe some pilot / small scale production facility has been set up in the mean time? I've read about a farm that produced its own fertilizer, but dunno whether that uses this or some older / unrelated process. Would be a huge breakthrough in any case.
- fbdab103 3y agoAre there power plants today that burn ammonia directly? If not, is it a simple/cheap enough conversion?
- praveen9920 3y agoIt is actually cheaper because of existing infrastructure that exists for fertilisers manufacturing. But the main concern is that ammonia burns slowly. It might work in power plants but not in EVs
- thfuran 3y agoWhy would you want to burn ammonia in an electric vehicle?
- dexwiz 3y agoNot sure if they are today, but Toyota is putting a lot of effort into ammonia turbines. Also ammonia can be fired with coal or natural gas in existing setups. The main issue is neutralization of NOx exhaust.
- ForgedEngine 3y agoFilter the exhaust through a caustic solution to neutralize NOxs.
- toomuchtodo 3y agoWhile not in mass production, there is strong interest from the marine shipping industry. It can be produced near ports, and meets the storage and combustion engine constraints (similar to diesel) of the use case. https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betting-big-on-ammonia https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betti... https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/30-06-2020-world-s-first-full-scale-ammonia-engine-test---an-important-step-towards-carbon-free-shipping-2737809 https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/30-06-2020-world-s-first... https://www.lr.org/en/about-us/press-listing/press-release/industry-leaders-join-forces-on-ammonia-fuelled-tanker-project/ https://www.lr.org/en/about-us/press-listing/press-release/i... https://www.ammoniaenergy.org/articles/maritime-fuel-mix-could-be-25-ammonia-by-2050/ https://www.ammoniaenergy.org/articles/maritime-fuel-mix-cou...
- Terr_ 3y agoA sibling comment mentions scrubbing NOx emissions as a significant issue, and it strikes me that the shipping/cruise industry is already a major polluter in that area. (Unlike cars, which must have catalytic converters because of local landlubber laws.)
- toomuchtodo 3y agoHigh efficiency scrubbing appears to be feasible. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.energyfuels.3c01419 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.energyfuels.3c01419
- Terr_ 3y agoI guess my point is that cleaner technology is already being avoided by those companies, because they can save a buck by polluting in international waters.
- ForgedEngine 3y agoNOxs are practically zero with HCCI at a stoichiometric ratio.
- adrian_b 3y agoThere has been a lot of research in fuel cells that generate electricity from ammonia, with much simpler storage problems than for hydrogen.
- Projectiboga 3y agoYes, fuel cells need more usage as we move away from oil & unnatural gas.
- galangalalgol 3y agoDirect propane fuel cells have some thermal issues, but recently there was a breakthrough in propane synthesis that would make it efficient to produce. Are ammonia fuelcells efficient?
- aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y agoI'm not sure I'd leap to "much simpler storage problems than for hydrogen" for a highly corrosive gas. The lower explosive limit of hydrogen is ~4%. By comparison the 300 ppm immediate danger to life and health threshold of ammonia is .03%. It is intrinsically dangerous, i.e. without a source of ignition, at concentrations 2 orders of magnitude lower than the LEL of hydrogen. Not every hydrogen leak is a concern, but just about every ammonia leak is. The established OSHA 15 minute exposure limit for ammonia is 35 ppm, 8 hours is 25 ppm.
- thfuran 3y agoBut hydrogen likes to make invisible fires and leak through solid steel, and it needs to be ludicrously cold to liquify.
- aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y agoGenerally speaking modern hydrogen pressure vessels are not metal for this reason, they are composite and not affected by embrittlement. The Toyota Mirai, a production hydrogen car, uses a type IV carbon fiber pressure vessel rated for 70 MPa / 10,000 psi. Type V are rated for 15,000 psi. It is not necessary to liquefy hydrogen for adequate range in ground transport applications: The Mirai yields a 402 mile EPA rated range on gaseous hydrogen. The tanks weigh 93kg filled with 5.65kg hydrogen, yielding an approximately 190 kWh of stored energy. All without corroding flesh in trace concentrations. By comparison the Tesla Roadster's 450kg battery pack yields a 200 kWh capacity. Ammonia is and would likely continue to be stored in metal pressure vessels as an obvious cost optimization and thus would compare unfavorably to hydrogen pressure vessels' effective energy density where that area of the performance versus cost optimization space is not available due to embrittlement.
- ZeroGravitas 3y agoIn Japan they're looking at adding Ammonia co-firing to coal plants: https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-strategy-a-costly-approach-to-decarbonization-renewables-present-more-economic-alternative/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-st...
- pfdietz 3y agoI think many (most?) combined cycle plants use ammonia to destroy NOx in the exhaust (selective catalytic reduction). Some diesel cars use this technology as well (using urea instead of ammonia).
- jtbayly 3y agoFarms have been producing their own fertilizer for centuries. ;-)
- multiplegeorges 3y agoMillenia, even.
- RetroTechie 3y agoYeah I know. Wasn't talking about that. https://phys.org/news/2021-02-plasma-technology-world.html https://phys.org/news/2021-02-plasma-technology-world.html https://portal.nifa.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/1025777-low-cost-plasma-reactors-for-on-farm-nitrogen-fixation.html https://portal.nifa.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/1025777-lo... https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acssuschemeng.2c06357 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acssuschemeng.2c06357 (paywalled) "plasma" and "NOx" seem to be the keywords here (so other process than discussed here). Not at scale (yet), cost unclear. But the technology exists, and being improved upon.
- eternauta3k 3y agoYes, and yields were crap back then. Guano and then synthetic fertilizer changed everything.
- bequanna 3y agoWell, we don't necessarily need as much storage if we can just shift a good amount of demand. Fertilizer production via this method might be a good fit for times when rates are low or even negative due to wind energy overproduction during off peak.
- aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y agoWhere are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up? They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel industry can lobby for strapped to our bum. I guess the notion has passed so quickly we haven't had time for the media to program us with corporate agendas...
- PumpkinSpice 3y agoI don't think it's realistic as a fuel for cars, but "worldwide transportation" means more than that. I suspect they're talking about container ships, tankers, and such. Ammonia is easier to liquify than hydrogen, and is in many respects easier to handle. However, it's definitely not something you want to have a spill of at a gas station or in your garage, and for that reason, it probably won't have "consumer" uses. As far as industrial gasses go, it's certainly nowhere near the worst, and there's plenty of ammonia tankers on the roads today, but large spills do kill people every now and then.
- aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y agoIt is certainly easier to liquefy, I can't argue that point.
- justinclift 3y agoHmmm, "gas station filled with petrol that explodes" vs "gas station filled with hydrogen that explodes". Being near either one as it explodes would be bad, but I wonder which one looks more impressive movie-effects-wise? :)
- sfink 3y agoIn my limited understanding, neither one really explodes. The petrol one would look like a huge impressive fireball that launches a big black mushroom cloud and then just burns like crazy. The hydrogen one, if the hydrogen is fairly pure, would be like a big faint blue wispy fireball, not all that impressive. If there were an oxidizer in the mix somehow, it would be rather more explosive.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- cornholio 3y agoThe Haber Bosch reaction does not produce any CO2: N2 + 3H2 -> 2NH3 The challenge is getting the zero emission Hydrogen. The process presented here is somewhat better than using electricity for the electrolysis split water, but still substantially more expensive than the gray Hydrogen obtain by cracking Methane gas and releasing the CO2.
- pfdietz 3y agoWhere did you conclude it was somewhat better than using electricity for electrolysis?
- cornholio 3y agoI took the author's claim of 100% electrolytic efficiency at face value and contrasted with typical water electrolysis efficiencies, followed by a Haber-Bosch step. This method of direct electroreduction should not confused with the Laser-induced method discussed elsewhere in the thread, which has abysmal numbers.
- pfdietz 3y agoThe 100% efficiency is faradaic efficiency, not energy efficiency, I believe.
- PaulHoule 3y agoThe strangest thing is that Japan is thinking about burning ammonia together with coal https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-strategy-a-costly-approach-to-decarbonization-renewables-present-more-economic-alternative/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/japans-ammonia-coal-co-firing-st... which I just can't imagine being clean when I consider that nitrogen oxides are also a concern with combustion fuels, not to mention it being an inefficient "battery" if you're making ammonia from green hydrogen and then burning it and spinning a turbine.
- conradev 3y agoIt’s big enough and true enough for entrepreneurs – Nitricity is building shipping container-sized fertilizer factories
- aaron695 3y ago> Big if true... Could you explain exactly why you would say this? Working past their fake news headlines like 100%. Hydrogen is almost 100% and that's not big if true. We are decades away for renewable electricity only for our electric needs. Then you have oil and many other things electric can replace which are worse than gas. What about this is big? In a dream world of unlimited electricity everything is easy, like synth fuel and fertilizer and climate control. Today, burning coal to make fertilizer doesn't seem good, if this is true.
- colechristensen 3y agoCalifornia produces about half of its electricity from renewables, mostly solar. We’re decades away from 100%, but how long away are we nationally from 50%, 65%, 90%, 99%? As solar production ramps up to higher percentages there is going to be more and more peak power in excess of demand. Industrial scale electrochemistry is going to be one of the alternatives to batteries that’s going to be developed. Already nitrogen fixation requires a huge amount of energy, this process at scale could very well require less energy than the modern haber process.
- applied_heat 3y agoWhat factory that produces X is so cheap to build in relation to the cost of energy on a daily basis that it is worth producing less X at different times of day due to the price of energy? The cost of the energy is usually such a small component of total costs it is not worth altering behavior for daily small energy price fluctuations, and nobody is advocating for energy prices to change by 10x throughout the day.
- gofhwgwidi 3y agoAluminum
- applied_heat 3y agoDo aluminum factories shut down daily due to fluctuating prices or are they located in areas with cheap and plentiful reliable electricity supply?
- colechristensen 3y agoCO2 production with current processes isn’t necessary. They could use renewable electricity to hydrolyze water and power the plant, it’s just cheaper to use the grid and methane as a source of hydrogen. Switching to carbon free ammonia would be no great task, just a price hike and some minor retrofitting.
- Paul-Craft 3y agoNot until you can generate electricity at grid scale without CO2 emissions. That includes building the infrastructure to do so. Even nuclear doesn't get you there.
- scythe 3y agoOh it's true. But as the paper states, they produced 3.9 millimoles — 0.068 grams — of ammonia in 96 hours. So I'm not exactly holding my breath. It's a big improvement over previous methods, but there's still a long way to go.
- hinkley 3y agoDefinitely hold your breath around people trying to produce ammonia.
- jojobas 3y agoThat's for a 1cm^2 electrode, as far as I remember not precious-metal rich either.
- thfuran 3y agoSo you only need an electrode about the size of Monaco to get 1 kg per second. Hopefully you can use some kind of foam or something.
- jojobas 3y agoThey sometimes use weird techniques to produce electrodes with specific area on the orders of thousands of square meters per gram. Even if it has to be flat, there's little holding you back from stacking 10k layers as long as you can manage the heat.