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Expats can be helpful to a country like Portugal but it has to be done correctly. And of course it hasn't. What Portugal needs to do is: 1. Ban Airbnb and othe

by jmyeet 3y ago

Expats can be helpful to a country like Portugal but it has to be done correctly. And of course it hasn't. What Portugal needs to do is: 1. Ban Airbnb and other short-term housing other than renting out a room in your house; 2. Provide a huge stock of social housing, meaning housing at an affordable price only available to natives; and 3. Restrict foreign ownership of huge swathes of the country. This could be as simple as "new construction only". Capitalism simply does not work where there's inelastic demand. it creates a regime where money is extracted from the poorest and most vulnerable by withholding basic human needs in the interests of profit for a few. EDIT: qualified the AirBnB restriction to only what it should be for, meaning renting out a room in your house, not running an illegal hotel.

lm28469 3y ago
Expats and digital nomads aren't the same thing. I'm an expat but I work locally for a local company with local wages like most people around me The problem is working for foreign company which pays a salary that is way above what your peers live with, it creates insane inequalities. One month of a good tech salary is one year of min wage in Portugal
- quonn 3y ago
  But this inequality exists everywhere, it‘s just not a year of salary but only half a year.
- jmyeet 3y ago
  This is a distinction without a difference. Expats often come with money from having higher wages overseas even if they work at local rates. Retirees, people who sell homes in a developed country and so on. Other than that, the Portugese government should favor Portugese people over the interests of people who simply want to relocate without any means whatsoever. This is already the case: immigrating to Portugal requires you to show you have sufficient means in terms of assets or income. This is another reason why "expat vs digital nomad" doesn't matter at all.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    > Expats often come with money from having higher wages overseas even if they work at local rates. I and most of my friends are expat, we left our home country after graduation, we didn't bring nay money. We're far from an exception
- 0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago
  >The problem is working for foreign company which pays a salary that is way above what your peers live with, it creates insane inequalities. Those inequalities are present regardless. It's just a matter of out of sight, out of mind. Check out this global inequality calculator, you might be surprised to learn that you're in the global 1%: https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i
  - lm28469 3y ago
    No it's not, when you can't live in your home town because foreigners with foreign salaries take everything it matters a lot. I don't care if someone is getting paid 5x as much for the same job in another country, I care if they get paid 5x as much for the same city
- zmnd 3y ago
  What you describe sounds like an immigrant, not an expat.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    An expat is someone who's not living in his home country, so yes, by definition... I think a lot of people use words without understanding their meanings
quonn 3y ago
> 3. Restrict foreign ownership of huge swathes of the country. This could be as simple as "new construction only". This will make the problem worse as the Portuguese will complain that the foreigners own the beautiful modern buildings. Additionally it‘s important to keep in mind that this is not feasible for EU countries with the four freedoms. It would be like Florida banning ownership of existing houses for Californians. (1) would totally kill the Portuguese tourism industry. (2) is reasonable and they are already doing it - but not sufficiently. I have a better idea: Tax the nomads with a rate that matches typical tax rates (around 30-40% and waive the crippling social security if health insurance is covered from abroad, not the excessive Portuguese taxes of 53% + 35% social security for a total of 88% on a salary of > 80.000. Nomads are fully exempted because nobody would be willing to pay that much). It would bring more than enough money into the country for house construction.
- jmyeet 3y ago
  > This will make the problem worse as the Portuguese will complain that the foreigners own the beautiful modern buildings. I don't agree. We already have expensive housing in every country that those who aren't wealthy might covet. Also, new construction can be done in a way where you set aside, say, 20% of the units for locals in the same way that cities like NYC try to (but, you know, better). > Additionally it‘s important to keep in mind that this is not feasible for EU countries with the four freedoms. That's not strictly true [1] eg Malta. Where it isn't possible, restricting non-EU citizens would still have a positive impact. Also, where you can't actually restrict people, you can effectively do it with taxation, like having high property taxes for non-residents. This would be perfectly legal. US states do this too (eg a non-Indiana resident pays higher property taxes than an Indiana resident). You can also discourage rampant property speculation with high transfer taxes, again targeted at foreign buyers. > It would be like Florida banning ownership of existing houses for Californians. I'm a big fan of doing this in Hawaii. > ... would totally kill the Portuguese tourism industry Build hotels. Build dedicated short-stay accomodation. Allow hoome owners to have ADUs. Build infrastructure for tourism. Don't use theoretical hits on tourism to make locals homeless. [1]: https://realting.com/news/where-it-is-banned-or-hard-for-foreigners-to-buy-real-estate https://realting.com/news/where-it-is-banned-or-hard-for-for...
somewhereoutth 3y ago
Agree with 1. Ban AirBnB. (this is already in play as I understand it) Silly tax incentives like Non-Habitual Residency have to go (done). 2. Actually already exists in the suburbs, but maybe now needs a bit of a make over. Of course the children of well-heeled Portuguese wouldn't stoop to live in such places while studying at University, but hey that's the world we live in! 3. The Golden Visa scheme is a nonsense (I think this is also being scrapped), but perhaps property taxes for places that are not the primary home might help with this.
- jmyeet 3y ago
  > Agree with 1. Ban AirBnB. (this is already in play as I understand it) I believe no new licenses are being granted. Personally, I don't think this goes far enough. Revoke existing licenses. > The Golden Visa scheme is a nonsense (I think this is also being scrapped) IMHO this was an overreaction. If the issue was pricing out locals, you could simply remove real estate as a qualifying investment under the visa and/or increase the minimum investment amount.
  - JetSpiegel 3y ago
    > IMHO this was an overreaction. If the issue was pricing out locals, you could simply remove real estate as a qualifying investment under the visa and/or increase the minimum investment amount. This is what the ban did. The golden visa for creating 10 non-temporary jobs remains, but for 9 years, there were 250 jobs created, with 20 takers (meaning almost all of them created the bare minimum 10 jobs). https://observador.pt/2021/12/25/vistos-gold-criterio-de-criacao-de-postos-de-trabalho-responsavel-por-241-empregos-em-nove-anos-de-programa/ https://observador.pt/2021/12/25/vistos-gold-criterio-de-cri...

by jmyeet 3y ago

lm28469 3y ago

Expats and digital nomads aren't the same thing. I'm an expat but I work locally for a local company with local wages like most people around me The problem is working for foreign company which pays a salary that is way above what your peers live with, it creates insane inequalities. One month of a good tech salary is one year of min wage in Portugal

quonn 3y ago
But this inequality exists everywhere, it‘s just not a year of salary but only half a year.
jmyeet 3y ago
This is a distinction without a difference. Expats often come with money from having higher wages overseas even if they work at local rates. Retirees, people who sell homes in a developed country and so on. Other than that, the Portugese government should favor Portugese people over the interests of people who simply want to relocate without any means whatsoever. This is already the case: immigrating to Portugal requires you to show you have sufficient means in terms of assets or income. This is another reason why "expat vs digital nomad" doesn't matter at all.
- lm28469 3y ago
  > Expats often come with money from having higher wages overseas even if they work at local rates. I and most of my friends are expat, we left our home country after graduation, we didn't bring nay money. We're far from an exception
0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago
>The problem is working for foreign company which pays a salary that is way above what your peers live with, it creates insane inequalities. Those inequalities are present regardless. It's just a matter of out of sight, out of mind. Check out this global inequality calculator, you might be surprised to learn that you're in the global 1%: https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i
- lm28469 3y ago
  No it's not, when you can't live in your home town because foreigners with foreign salaries take everything it matters a lot. I don't care if someone is getting paid 5x as much for the same job in another country, I care if they get paid 5x as much for the same city
zmnd 3y ago
What you describe sounds like an immigrant, not an expat.
- lm28469 3y ago
  An expat is someone who's not living in his home country, so yes, by definition... I think a lot of people use words without understanding their meanings

quonn 3y ago

> 3. Restrict foreign ownership of huge swathes of the country. This could be as simple as "new construction only". This will make the problem worse as the Portuguese will complain that the foreigners own the beautiful modern buildings. Additionally it‘s important to keep in mind that this is not feasible for EU countries with the four freedoms. It would be like Florida banning ownership of existing houses for Californians. (1) would totally kill the Portuguese tourism industry. (2) is reasonable and they are already doing it - but not sufficiently. I have a better idea: Tax the nomads with a rate that matches typical tax rates (around 30-40% and waive the crippling social security if health insurance is covered from abroad, not the excessive Portuguese taxes of 53% + 35% social security for a total of 88% on a salary of > 80.000. Nomads are fully exempted because nobody would be willing to pay that much). It would bring more than enough money into the country for house construction.

jmyeet 3y ago
> This will make the problem worse as the Portuguese will complain that the foreigners own the beautiful modern buildings. I don't agree. We already have expensive housing in every country that those who aren't wealthy might covet. Also, new construction can be done in a way where you set aside, say, 20% of the units for locals in the same way that cities like NYC try to (but, you know, better). > Additionally it‘s important to keep in mind that this is not feasible for EU countries with the four freedoms. That's not strictly true [1] eg Malta. Where it isn't possible, restricting non-EU citizens would still have a positive impact. Also, where you can't actually restrict people, you can effectively do it with taxation, like having high property taxes for non-residents. This would be perfectly legal. US states do this too (eg a non-Indiana resident pays higher property taxes than an Indiana resident). You can also discourage rampant property speculation with high transfer taxes, again targeted at foreign buyers. > It would be like Florida banning ownership of existing houses for Californians. I'm a big fan of doing this in Hawaii. > ... would totally kill the Portuguese tourism industry Build hotels. Build dedicated short-stay accomodation. Allow hoome owners to have ADUs. Build infrastructure for tourism. Don't use theoretical hits on tourism to make locals homeless. [1]: https://realting.com/news/where-it-is-banned-or-hard-for-foreigners-to-buy-real-estate https://realting.com/news/where-it-is-banned-or-hard-for-for...

somewhereoutth 3y ago

Agree with 1. Ban AirBnB. (this is already in play as I understand it) Silly tax incentives like Non-Habitual Residency have to go (done). 2. Actually already exists in the suburbs, but maybe now needs a bit of a make over. Of course the children of well-heeled Portuguese wouldn't stoop to live in such places while studying at University, but hey that's the world we live in! 3. The Golden Visa scheme is a nonsense (I think this is also being scrapped), but perhaps property taxes for places that are not the primary home might help with this.

jmyeet 3y ago
> Agree with 1. Ban AirBnB. (this is already in play as I understand it) I believe no new licenses are being granted. Personally, I don't think this goes far enough. Revoke existing licenses. > The Golden Visa scheme is a nonsense (I think this is also being scrapped) IMHO this was an overreaction. If the issue was pricing out locals, you could simply remove real estate as a qualifying investment under the visa and/or increase the minimum investment amount.
- JetSpiegel 3y ago
  > IMHO this was an overreaction. If the issue was pricing out locals, you could simply remove real estate as a qualifying investment under the visa and/or increase the minimum investment amount. This is what the ban did. The golden visa for creating 10 non-temporary jobs remains, but for 9 years, there were 250 jobs created, with 20 takers (meaning almost all of them created the bare minimum 10 jobs). https://observador.pt/2021/12/25/vistos-gold-criterio-de-criacao-de-postos-de-trabalho-responsavel-por-241-empregos-em-nove-anos-de-programa/ https://observador.pt/2021/12/25/vistos-gold-criterio-de-cri...