3 ms·

What I don't understand is, besides the legal part, where all the common sense went. I mean is it really unknown to everyone that hot coffee is actually hot and

What I don't understand is, besides the legal part, where all the common sense went. I mean is it really unknown to everyone that hot coffee is actually hot and may burn you? Whose liability is that you forgot that a hot drink should cool down a bit? Shall McDonals cool it down for you and then you'll sue them because the hot coffee is not anymore hot but just warm?

cpuguy83 3y ago
Posting just for those who are not aware, in the 90's McDonalds was sued for this exact thing [1]. The person had 3rd degree burns and was hospitalized for 8 days after spilling the coffee. --- EDIT --- Just adding that, IIRC, this is _the_ reason coffee cups say "caution: contents of this are hot" (or whatever to that effect). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Rest...
- rfrey 3y ago
  Also notable that the hospitalized person initially only requested that McDonald's pay for the medical care, a request which was refused. That this case has become the poster child for "crazy lawsuits" is really a triumph of corporate PR.
- flutas 3y ago
  Their coffee was stored and served far too hot compared to any other place. They also had over 700 claims from the coffee in 10 years. > McDonald's required franchisees to hold coffee at 180–190 °F (82–88 °C) > coffee they had tested all over the city was served at a temperature at least 20 °F (11 °C) lower than McDonald's coffee > They also presented the jury with expert testimony that 190 °F (88 °C) coffee may produce third-degree burns (where skin grafting is necessary) in about three seconds and 180 °F (82 °C) coffee may produce such burns in about twelve to fifteen seconds. Lowering the temperature to 160 °F (71 °C) would increase the time for the coffee to produce such a burn to 20 seconds. and the vast numbers you hear about in this settlement are a result of that. All the victim wanted was medical expenses covered. > Liebeck sought to settle with McDonald's for $20,000 to cover her actual and anticipated expenses.
deleted 3y ago
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Latty 3y ago
The case is well documented and was not just "the coffee was hot", the coffee was served 20 degrees hotter than other establishments, with no special warnings, in a cup that was not rigid enough, and the company had hundreds of previous cases of people being burned by it they ignored.
Keirmot 3y ago
Well, there’s hot coffee and there’s coffee that give you 3rd degree burns.
Riseed 3y ago
Yes, you should know that coffee is actually hot and may burn you. Likewise, McDonalds should know how hot is too hot and not serve its coffee at dangerous temperatures. In case you're unaware of the context, in short: McDonald's launched a smear campaign against the lady who spilled hot coffee on her lap. The elderly lady was in the passenger seat of a parked car at the time, and the coffee was so hot that it fused her labia and she needed multiple skin grafts to recover. She asked McDonalds to check their coffee equipment (surely it was malfunctioning if coffee was that hot) and asked them to pay her medical bills, but they refused. During the trial, it was discovered that McDonalds had received hundreds of complaints about the temperature of their coffee and done nothing. The jury awarded her more than she was asking, which amounted to something like the profit from one day's coffee sales. https://www.rd.com/article/hot-coffee-lawsuit/ https://www.rd.com/article/hot-coffee-lawsuit/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaura...
aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
It probably went to the same place as critical thought about the app economy as a whole
pbhjpbhj 3y ago
When you make coffee, the water cools, eg the rat-tails from an espresso being made (with water at 85-95 C) have a large surface area which leads to cooling as the coffee enters a cup. A ceramic cup/mug will leech out heat, despite being kept warm (about 40 C?). Drip coffee often sits on a heater, but the temperature is relatively low. McDonalds reportedly used higher temperatures to extract more coffee, and kept their coffee very hot, enough to cause third degree burns in the Hot Coffee case IIRC. They had many complaints and refused to lower the temperature. So, McDonalds don't need to cool it so much as not heat it so much. Drinking temperature is below 70 C, McDo were reportedly giving it to people at 90+ C, reports say 20 C above industry norms; hotter than being temperatures. Blaming customers who are very familiar with buying coffee for not knowing you purposeful heat it to a much higher temperature would be crass in the extreme. Like selling Chicken Korma (a very mild curry) and putting ghost peppers (very hot spicy peppers) in it, and refusing to add a warning or anything when lots of people complained.

cpuguy83 3y ago

Posting just for those who are not aware, in the 90's McDonalds was sued for this exact thing [1]. The person had 3rd degree burns and was hospitalized for 8 days after spilling the coffee. --- EDIT --- Just adding that, IIRC, this is _the_ reason coffee cups say "caution: contents of this are hot" (or whatever to that effect). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Rest...

rfrey 3y ago
Also notable that the hospitalized person initially only requested that McDonald's pay for the medical care, a request which was refused. That this case has become the poster child for "crazy lawsuits" is really a triumph of corporate PR.
flutas 3y ago
Their coffee was stored and served far too hot compared to any other place. They also had over 700 claims from the coffee in 10 years. > McDonald's required franchisees to hold coffee at 180–190 °F (82–88 °C) > coffee they had tested all over the city was served at a temperature at least 20 °F (11 °C) lower than McDonald's coffee > They also presented the jury with expert testimony that 190 °F (88 °C) coffee may produce third-degree burns (where skin grafting is necessary) in about three seconds and 180 °F (82 °C) coffee may produce such burns in about twelve to fifteen seconds. Lowering the temperature to 160 °F (71 °C) would increase the time for the coffee to produce such a burn to 20 seconds. and the vast numbers you hear about in this settlement are a result of that. All the victim wanted was medical expenses covered. > Liebeck sought to settle with McDonald's for $20,000 to cover her actual and anticipated expenses.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Latty 3y ago

The case is well documented and was not just "the coffee was hot", the coffee was served 20 degrees hotter than other establishments, with no special warnings, in a cup that was not rigid enough, and the company had hundreds of previous cases of people being burned by it they ignored.

Keirmot 3y ago

Well, there’s hot coffee and there’s coffee that give you 3rd degree burns.

Riseed 3y ago

Yes, you should know that coffee is actually hot and may burn you. Likewise, McDonalds should know how hot is too hot and not serve its coffee at dangerous temperatures. In case you're unaware of the context, in short: McDonald's launched a smear campaign against the lady who spilled hot coffee on her lap. The elderly lady was in the passenger seat of a parked car at the time, and the coffee was so hot that it fused her labia and she needed multiple skin grafts to recover. She asked McDonalds to check their coffee equipment (surely it was malfunctioning if coffee was that hot) and asked them to pay her medical bills, but they refused. During the trial, it was discovered that McDonalds had received hundreds of complaints about the temperature of their coffee and done nothing. The jury awarded her more than she was asking, which amounted to something like the profit from one day's coffee sales. https://www.rd.com/article/hot-coffee-lawsuit/ https://www.rd.com/article/hot-coffee-lawsuit/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaura...

aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago

It probably went to the same place as critical thought about the app economy as a whole

pbhjpbhj 3y ago

When you make coffee, the water cools, eg the rat-tails from an espresso being made (with water at 85-95 C) have a large surface area which leads to cooling as the coffee enters a cup. A ceramic cup/mug will leech out heat, despite being kept warm (about 40 C?). Drip coffee often sits on a heater, but the temperature is relatively low. McDonalds reportedly used higher temperatures to extract more coffee, and kept their coffee very hot, enough to cause third degree burns in the Hot Coffee case IIRC. They had many complaints and refused to lower the temperature. So, McDonalds don't need to cool it so much as not heat it so much. Drinking temperature is below 70 C, McDo were reportedly giving it to people at 90+ C, reports say 20 C above industry norms; hotter than being temperatures. Blaming customers who are very familiar with buying coffee for not knowing you purposeful heat it to a much higher temperature would be crass in the extreme. Like selling Chicken Korma (a very mild curry) and putting ghost peppers (very hot spicy peppers) in it, and refusing to add a warning or anything when lots of people complained.