6 ms·

Oooh, now do Orca cards next. Seattle is one of the tech capitals of the United States, and on top of the metro system just being not great, it's also technical

by k8svet 3y ago

Oooh, now do Orca cards next. Seattle is one of the tech capitals of the United States, and on top of the metro system just being not great, it's also technically inferior to nearly every single other major city that I've used public transit. Pick any European city, CDMX, Denver. They're all light years ahead of Seattle. Denver might have been my favorite. Fun fact, one of the orgs that runs Orca actually wrote a blog post mentioning they were adding NFC support to their Android app (with some absurdly long timeline). That post is no longer to be found, and of course, years later, that functionality is absent.

organsnyder 3y ago
My local transit system just added tap-to-pay that works with any credit card (or Apple/Google Pay etc.). As long as you use the same card it handles transfers, multi-day passes, etc. seamlessly as well—it will automatically ensure you're getting the correct rate (e.g. no charge for passes or rides after a certain number within a certain period).
- snazz 3y ago
  This is how it works in London and I think New York as well now. Big upgrade over loading money on a card.
  - fotta 3y ago
    Clipper-accepting agencies in the SF Bay Area will have this next summer too.
    - femiagbabiaka 3y ago
      Woah. Where can I read more?
  - pests 3y ago
    Yep this was how it was in New York City. I was there a few months ago and remember the subway being free or reduced after 10 trips per week - tracked by the credit card number used.
- monksy 3y ago
  This system really sucks because you can't just slide your wallet over the reader. It'll pick up your cc before your transit pass. The move to do tap based transit with cc s is pretty stupid as that cc s get replace far more frequently than transit cards. The only person this really benefits is new users to the system that haven't figured out how to get a transit card yet.
  - gumby 3y ago
    Transit card is simply another thing to haul out, manage etc. What advantage does it have over a cc? Also with it baked into your card you don’t have to pull anything out since your phone is almost always at hand.
  - skykooler 3y ago
    This sort of system is really nice for visitors, tourists etc., though.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      For a city you don't visit often--especially if you're going to a bunch of cities on the trip--dealing with transit apps/cards/etc. that are specific to the city is a royal pain. I'm fine if it's a city I visit regularly--I have an Oyster card for London that I've had for a number of years. In general, though, I'd rather default to using a credit card.
      - mdpye 3y ago
        You can safely return that oyster card and get your deposit back now :D I live in London and recently passed a convenience store whose signage advertised the usual stuff: "Fresh veg. Off licence. European specialty foods. Oyster". I was genuinely confused for a second that such a place would carry such short shelf life seafood... Pre-pay card are gone here. The only people I know now who have an Oyster branded card are those who get discount or free travel.
        3y ago
- vermilingua 3y ago
  My only gripe with this mode (with Opal in Sydney) is that you don’t get the trip fare displayed on the gate when you pay with a payment card. I imagine this is a technical limitation (Opal stores trip detais on-card, which it can’t do with a payment card), and is a low priority anyway (as you don’t need to know when to top up a payment card) but would be nice to have.
- obelos 3y ago
  My city's transit system has this. It's convenient for if you're traveling alone, but traveling with kids now requires more logistics and planning than it used to. Their former electronic pass system was just an app that allowed you to activate any number of adult and child fares all on the same device. Now I have to carry separate physical cards for the kids.
Kye 3y ago
I wonder how much it costs to maintain a system to collect fares compared the small portion of funding most transit systems would lose from going fare free.
- piperswe 3y ago
  Going fare free would induce demand which would increase operating costs, so it's not that simple.
  - Analemma_ 3y ago
    The other thing about going fare-free-- which people don't like to discuss but it is a real effect which has been measured-- is that it causes much more anti-social behavior on the bus, which decreases ridership among people who have only a slight preference for transit versus just driving their car. This not only makes traffic worse (which kinda defeats the whole purpose), it also tanks political support for transit, since fewer voters are using it and then they see no point in supporting it.
    - Kye 3y ago
      Can you point to where you found this measurement? This is the first I've heard of it.
      - dmoy 3y ago
        I first heard of it from the transit union here in Seattle when they axed the downtown free bus zone like 10 years ago. There was some vague mention of the bus drivers in ... somewhere in Texas... like 30 years before that. Beyond that I haven't heard much of it because as I understand it, there isn't much free transit anywhere big.
        NeoTar 3y ago
        May I introduce you to the country of Luxembourg that offers free public transport - admittedly one of the smallest nations in Europe in area (2,586.4 km2 (998.6 sq mi)) and population (660,809), but bigger than many cities.
_huayra_ 3y ago
Google Wallet will soon support this (from a few days ago): https://blog.google/products/google-pay/commute-around-the-world-with-google-wallet/ https://blog.google/products/google-pay/commute-around-the-w... edit: linking to Google's blog directly
gattilorenz 3y ago
Related: isn't there a way to "clone" an NFC card using (rooted) Android? I have been looking into how feasible it could be doing so on iOS since my office door opens via an NFC card, but iirc Apple has a tighter grip on the NFC hardware than with general PassKit, meaning that a regular app can't do that.
- jackson1442 3y ago
  Kinda. NFC is a broad spectrum of protocols. For example the old blue Orca cards are MiFare DESFire cards which actually store the card’s value in the card’s internal chip- this type (while having some flaws) cannot easily be copied onto a phone. A simple NFC tag with binary data is trivial to copy though.
- lxgr 3y ago
  Only very old systems, or those where the cost of the tag has to be as low as possible (e.g. for single-ride throwaway paper tickets), use unauthenticated bearer tokens. Access control systems these days usually do not, for obvious reasons.
- mmh0000 3y ago
  A perfect use case for a Flipper [1] https://docs.flipper.net/nfc/read https://docs.flipper.net/nfc/read
konaraddi 3y ago
https://info.myorca.com/news/can-i-use-my-phone-to-pay-for-a-ride/ https://info.myorca.com/news/can-i-use-my-phone-to-pay-for-a... Tap to pay coming to orca in 2023, they’ve got ~2 months left for it to be true I’m optimistic because google recently put out a post that google wallet will support ORCA soon (as shared by another commenter)
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Seattle government and area transit agencies is pretty bad at this kind of thing. If they say 2023, they probably mean 2025 or later.
fyrn_ 3y ago
https://info.myorca.com/news/can-i-use-my-phone-to-pay-for-a-ride/ https://info.myorca.com/news/can-i-use-my-phone-to-pay-for-a... The post still exists, but no updates since then
besthknow 3y ago
Best transit card I have used has been in HK. The value on the card can be used in small shops around the city up to $150 dollars.
- Terr_ 3y ago
  Yeah, it's weird how in Seattle the Orca card is still barely reaching the convenience and utility that the Octopus card had in Hong Kong over 20 years ago. Then again, it's not being carried along by a large subway system under incredible urban density.
BHSPitMonkey 3y ago
The reason they replaced all the Orca card terminals last year (and issued a new generation of cards) was, in part, to support NFC through the wallet apps. It's been a multi-year migration.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
This, really this. Since Washington state doesn’t have an E driver license yet (like say Utah), I carry around three cards in my iPhone (orca, DL, a backup credit card just in case NFC isn’t supported). I dream of the day when orca actually supports a phone based IC card, and a phone based DL is accepted as well.

by k8svet 3y ago

organsnyder 3y ago

My local transit system just added tap-to-pay that works with any credit card (or Apple/Google Pay etc.). As long as you use the same card it handles transfers, multi-day passes, etc. seamlessly as well—it will automatically ensure you're getting the correct rate (e.g. no charge for passes or rides after a certain number within a certain period).

snazz 3y ago
This is how it works in London and I think New York as well now. Big upgrade over loading money on a card.
- fotta 3y ago
  Clipper-accepting agencies in the SF Bay Area will have this next summer too.
  - femiagbabiaka 3y ago
    Woah. Where can I read more?
- pests 3y ago
  Yep this was how it was in New York City. I was there a few months ago and remember the subway being free or reduced after 10 trips per week - tracked by the credit card number used.
monksy 3y ago
This system really sucks because you can't just slide your wallet over the reader. It'll pick up your cc before your transit pass. The move to do tap based transit with cc s is pretty stupid as that cc s get replace far more frequently than transit cards. The only person this really benefits is new users to the system that haven't figured out how to get a transit card yet.
- gumby 3y ago
  Transit card is simply another thing to haul out, manage etc. What advantage does it have over a cc? Also with it baked into your card you don’t have to pull anything out since your phone is almost always at hand.
- skykooler 3y ago
  This sort of system is really nice for visitors, tourists etc., though.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    For a city you don't visit often--especially if you're going to a bunch of cities on the trip--dealing with transit apps/cards/etc. that are specific to the city is a royal pain. I'm fine if it's a city I visit regularly--I have an Oyster card for London that I've had for a number of years. In general, though, I'd rather default to using a credit card.
    - mdpye 3y ago
      You can safely return that oyster card and get your deposit back now :D I live in London and recently passed a convenience store whose signage advertised the usual stuff: "Fresh veg. Off licence. European specialty foods. Oyster". I was genuinely confused for a second that such a place would carry such short shelf life seafood... Pre-pay card are gone here. The only people I know now who have an Oyster branded card are those who get discount or free travel.
      - 3y ago
vermilingua 3y ago
My only gripe with this mode (with Opal in Sydney) is that you don’t get the trip fare displayed on the gate when you pay with a payment card. I imagine this is a technical limitation (Opal stores trip detais on-card, which it can’t do with a payment card), and is a low priority anyway (as you don’t need to know when to top up a payment card) but would be nice to have.
obelos 3y ago
My city's transit system has this. It's convenient for if you're traveling alone, but traveling with kids now requires more logistics and planning than it used to. Their former electronic pass system was just an app that allowed you to activate any number of adult and child fares all on the same device. Now I have to carry separate physical cards for the kids.

Kye 3y ago

I wonder how much it costs to maintain a system to collect fares compared the small portion of funding most transit systems would lose from going fare free.

piperswe 3y ago
Going fare free would induce demand which would increase operating costs, so it's not that simple.
- Analemma_ 3y ago
  The other thing about going fare-free-- which people don't like to discuss but it is a real effect which has been measured-- is that it causes much more anti-social behavior on the bus, which decreases ridership among people who have only a slight preference for transit versus just driving their car. This not only makes traffic worse (which kinda defeats the whole purpose), it also tanks political support for transit, since fewer voters are using it and then they see no point in supporting it.
  - Kye 3y ago
    Can you point to where you found this measurement? This is the first I've heard of it.
    - dmoy 3y ago
      I first heard of it from the transit union here in Seattle when they axed the downtown free bus zone like 10 years ago. There was some vague mention of the bus drivers in ... somewhere in Texas... like 30 years before that. Beyond that I haven't heard much of it because as I understand it, there isn't much free transit anywhere big.
      - NeoTar 3y ago
        May I introduce you to the country of Luxembourg that offers free public transport - admittedly one of the smallest nations in Europe in area (2,586.4 km2 (998.6 sq mi)) and population (660,809), but bigger than many cities.

_huayra_ 3y ago

Google Wallet will soon support this (from a few days ago): https://blog.google/products/google-pay/commute-around-the-world-with-google-wallet/ https://blog.google/products/google-pay/commute-around-the-w... edit: linking to Google's blog directly

gattilorenz 3y ago

Related: isn't there a way to "clone" an NFC card using (rooted) Android? I have been looking into how feasible it could be doing so on iOS since my office door opens via an NFC card, but iirc Apple has a tighter grip on the NFC hardware than with general PassKit, meaning that a regular app can't do that.

jackson1442 3y ago
Kinda. NFC is a broad spectrum of protocols. For example the old blue Orca cards are MiFare DESFire cards which actually store the card’s value in the card’s internal chip- this type (while having some flaws) cannot easily be copied onto a phone. A simple NFC tag with binary data is trivial to copy though.
lxgr 3y ago
Only very old systems, or those where the cost of the tag has to be as low as possible (e.g. for single-ride throwaway paper tickets), use unauthenticated bearer tokens. Access control systems these days usually do not, for obvious reasons.
mmh0000 3y ago
A perfect use case for a Flipper [1] https://docs.flipper.net/nfc/read https://docs.flipper.net/nfc/read

konaraddi 3y ago

https://info.myorca.com/news/can-i-use-my-phone-to-pay-for-a-ride/ https://info.myorca.com/news/can-i-use-my-phone-to-pay-for-a... Tap to pay coming to orca in 2023, they’ve got ~2 months left for it to be true I’m optimistic because google recently put out a post that google wallet will support ORCA soon (as shared by another commenter)

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Seattle government and area transit agencies is pretty bad at this kind of thing. If they say 2023, they probably mean 2025 or later.

fyrn_ 3y ago

https://info.myorca.com/news/can-i-use-my-phone-to-pay-for-a-ride/ https://info.myorca.com/news/can-i-use-my-phone-to-pay-for-a... The post still exists, but no updates since then

besthknow 3y ago

Best transit card I have used has been in HK. The value on the card can be used in small shops around the city up to $150 dollars.

Terr_ 3y ago
Yeah, it's weird how in Seattle the Orca card is still barely reaching the convenience and utility that the Octopus card had in Hong Kong over 20 years ago. Then again, it's not being carried along by a large subway system under incredible urban density.

BHSPitMonkey 3y ago

The reason they replaced all the Orca card terminals last year (and issued a new generation of cards) was, in part, to support NFC through the wallet apps. It's been a multi-year migration.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

This, really this. Since Washington state doesn’t have an E driver license yet (like say Utah), I carry around three cards in my iPhone (orca, DL, a backup credit card just in case NFC isn’t supported). I dream of the day when orca actually supports a phone based IC card, and a phone based DL is accepted as well.