5 ms·

First some context. Since long past, I've heard that public school teachers in the USA generally come from the bottom 20% of their class. In contrast, applicant

by wrp 3y ago

First some context. Since long past, I've heard that public school teachers in the USA generally come from the bottom 20% of their class. In contrast, applicants for teacher training in South Korea are required to come from the top 1/3 of their class. I've experienced a huge difference in the quality of discussion I can have with American versus Korean educational professionals. My point here is that Korean teachers have a higher level of training and professionalism than Americans might expect, so if they are complaining about something, it's really serious. Now, on to what has changed in Korean society the past decade. TFA points to the symptom but not the cause with "the teacher-parent dynamic is unrecognizable from just a decade or two ago" and "parents are regarded as like a consumer, with consumer sovereignty." The big issue that TFA doesn't mention is demographics. With a declining student population, schools are desperate for cust--...err...students. I teach at the university level and academic standards have fallen through the floor. I'm not saying this is the only source of change, but I do think it is the main factor.

joshl32532 3y ago
> I've heard that public school teachers in the USA generally come from the bottom 20% of their class. No way this is true. ~57% of teachers have Master's degree or higher. Bottom 20% of their class means they'd barely have enough GPA to graduate, let alone get into a MEd program. https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/ntps/tables/ntps1718_fltable04_t1s.asp https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/ntps/tables/ntps1718_fltable04_t...
- coryrc 3y ago
  Of people taking the GRE, teachers have the lowest scores.
  - coryrc 3y ago
    Here's the evidence: https://www.umsl.edu/~philo/files/pdfs/ETS%20LINK.pdf https://www.umsl.edu/~philo/files/pdfs/ETS%20LINK.pdf
    - coryrc 3y ago
      There's some obvious caveats: 1. Not everyone who becomes a teacher is getting a teacher major. English Lit scores well in two areas. 2. Special education is just very expensive babysitting, so they don't actually need to know anything. 3. If you ever wonder why kids aren't learning math well, this should explain it. Every teaching major is in the bottom half of scores. Fucking nurses score better!
      - xp84 3y ago
        Tell me you’ve never been involved with SpEd without telling me.
    - joshl32532 3y ago
      Interesting...
  - thfuran 3y ago
    But if less than half of adults have any kind of college degree and more than half of teachers have a master's, just saying "the teachers are the bottom 20% of the class" is, at best, extremely misleading—it's not even the same class as the average non-teacher.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - NooneAtAll3 3y ago
    what's GRE?
- jterrys 3y ago
  Teachers get on special educational programmes that have lighter requirements. For example, they don't get a math degree to teach math. They get a teacher's degree to teach math. https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/types-of-teaching-degrees https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/types-of-... https://future.utsa.edu/programs/undergraduate/mathematics-for-teaching/ https://future.utsa.edu/programs/undergraduate/mathematics-f...
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    It isn’t weird that someone teaching K-12 math would learn to teach math to kids rather than focus on advanced math that they would never need or use for their job. Considering that even the most advanced math class in high school usually is a first or second semester class in university.
    - jterrys 3y ago
      Right. But they're not rigorous degrees compared to pure math/science degrees, hence why the bottom 20% observation comes into play.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Teaching is a different kind of hard I guess, I wouldn’t say it is easier, especially for those of us who aren’t great at training up soft skills. I’m glad someone can make a good career out of it, I don’t think I could.
- xp84 3y ago
  Don’t a lot of teachers who have a masters get that degree later on after they’ve been teaching? (If I understand correctly, it’s a direct ticket to a pay raise).
- wrp 3y ago
  > ~57% of teachers have Master's degree or higher. This points to an important issue. I think most college-educated people are aware that at a typical university in the USA, the College of Education is separate from the College of Arts & Sciences. What they are probably not aware of without direct experience is the tremendous difference in academic rigor between Education and the Social Sciences. I've been nosing around Education programs for years and a good deal of what goes on in classrooms reminds me of my own experiences in junior high school. We like to joke about classes in Underwater Basket Weaving, but I once actually saw a 10-week, upper-division course in how to make use of a photocopier. Now to the point. Among the Social Sciences, the field that has developed the most rigor in experimental standards and application of mathematics is probably Psychology. On the other hand, over in the College of Education, there is a field of Educational Psychology, which may be held up as an example of cargo cult science. Published results on the psychology of learning attract a fair amount of attention on HN, but often the most dramatic reports are coming out of Educational Psychology, not Psychology. Readers need to be aware of the distinction between those fields to better adjust the credence they give to their output.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  It is probably impossible to compare education majors to say computer science majors just on their collegiate GPA, or comparing masters program admissions between those (mostly education graduates will go on to enter a masters in education program). There must be something else they are comparing, or maybe the fact is just made up (likely it is impossible to make this claim).
dieselgate 3y ago
Interesting, have never explicitly heard that about American teachers. Only heard mean stuff about band teachers. What's the pay difference between USA and Korean public school teachers? The U.S. does have a pretty notoriously bad public education program, so it wouldn't surprise me - am curious how the programs compare as a whole given the countries' differences (e.g. population size and demographics).
- wrp 3y ago
  Public school teaching in Korea has a reputation for pretty good pay, but more importantly, for job security. Being a teacher is said to significantly improve one's attractiveness as a marriage prospect because of that. Admittance to teaching programs has been competitive in the past (just being in the top 1/3 wasn't a guarantee), but I don't know the current situation with college admissions in that field.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Does Korea have normal (teaching) universities like China does? If so, I would assume that they aren’t even going to the same schools as say STEM majors, which makes being at the top third of their class even more amazing (and WTF do the other two thirds do if they were going to school to be a teacher?).
    - wrp 3y ago
      When you are applying to enter a teaching program, you need to have been in the top 1/3 of the class you were just in. As I understand it, that's just a basic requirement and doesn't by itself guarantee admission. I haven't heard anything about attrition rates in teaching programs. Something else to know about Korean universities is that admission to departments is competitive, and once students are accepted by a university, they will change departments before trying to change schools. I knew a girl who wanted to study biochemistry, but didn't make the cut in that department, so she went with an opening in silicon engineering, and now works at Samsung designing chips. I hear stories like that very frequently.

by wrp 3y ago

joshl32532 3y ago

> I've heard that public school teachers in the USA generally come from the bottom 20% of their class. No way this is true. ~57% of teachers have Master's degree or higher. Bottom 20% of their class means they'd barely have enough GPA to graduate, let alone get into a MEd program. https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/ntps/tables/ntps1718_fltable04_t1s.asp https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/ntps/tables/ntps1718_fltable04_t...

coryrc 3y ago
Of people taking the GRE, teachers have the lowest scores.
- coryrc 3y ago
  Here's the evidence: https://www.umsl.edu/~philo/files/pdfs/ETS%20LINK.pdf https://www.umsl.edu/~philo/files/pdfs/ETS%20LINK.pdf
  - coryrc 3y ago
    There's some obvious caveats: 1. Not everyone who becomes a teacher is getting a teacher major. English Lit scores well in two areas. 2. Special education is just very expensive babysitting, so they don't actually need to know anything. 3. If you ever wonder why kids aren't learning math well, this should explain it. Every teaching major is in the bottom half of scores. Fucking nurses score better!
    - xp84 3y ago
      Tell me you’ve never been involved with SpEd without telling me.
  - joshl32532 3y ago
    Interesting...
- thfuran 3y ago
  But if less than half of adults have any kind of college degree and more than half of teachers have a master's, just saying "the teachers are the bottom 20% of the class" is, at best, extremely misleading—it's not even the same class as the average non-teacher.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- NooneAtAll3 3y ago
  what's GRE?
jterrys 3y ago
Teachers get on special educational programmes that have lighter requirements. For example, they don't get a math degree to teach math. They get a teacher's degree to teach math. https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/types-of-teaching-degrees https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/types-of-... https://future.utsa.edu/programs/undergraduate/mathematics-for-teaching/ https://future.utsa.edu/programs/undergraduate/mathematics-f...
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  It isn’t weird that someone teaching K-12 math would learn to teach math to kids rather than focus on advanced math that they would never need or use for their job. Considering that even the most advanced math class in high school usually is a first or second semester class in university.
  - jterrys 3y ago
    Right. But they're not rigorous degrees compared to pure math/science degrees, hence why the bottom 20% observation comes into play.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Teaching is a different kind of hard I guess, I wouldn’t say it is easier, especially for those of us who aren’t great at training up soft skills. I’m glad someone can make a good career out of it, I don’t think I could.
xp84 3y ago
Don’t a lot of teachers who have a masters get that degree later on after they’ve been teaching? (If I understand correctly, it’s a direct ticket to a pay raise).
wrp 3y ago
> ~57% of teachers have Master's degree or higher. This points to an important issue. I think most college-educated people are aware that at a typical university in the USA, the College of Education is separate from the College of Arts & Sciences. What they are probably not aware of without direct experience is the tremendous difference in academic rigor between Education and the Social Sciences. I've been nosing around Education programs for years and a good deal of what goes on in classrooms reminds me of my own experiences in junior high school. We like to joke about classes in Underwater Basket Weaving, but I once actually saw a 10-week, upper-division course in how to make use of a photocopier. Now to the point. Among the Social Sciences, the field that has developed the most rigor in experimental standards and application of mathematics is probably Psychology. On the other hand, over in the College of Education, there is a field of Educational Psychology, which may be held up as an example of cargo cult science. Published results on the psychology of learning attract a fair amount of attention on HN, but often the most dramatic reports are coming out of Educational Psychology, not Psychology. Readers need to be aware of the distinction between those fields to better adjust the credence they give to their output.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
It is probably impossible to compare education majors to say computer science majors just on their collegiate GPA, or comparing masters program admissions between those (mostly education graduates will go on to enter a masters in education program). There must be something else they are comparing, or maybe the fact is just made up (likely it is impossible to make this claim).

dieselgate 3y ago

Interesting, have never explicitly heard that about American teachers. Only heard mean stuff about band teachers. What's the pay difference between USA and Korean public school teachers? The U.S. does have a pretty notoriously bad public education program, so it wouldn't surprise me - am curious how the programs compare as a whole given the countries' differences (e.g. population size and demographics).

wrp 3y ago
Public school teaching in Korea has a reputation for pretty good pay, but more importantly, for job security. Being a teacher is said to significantly improve one's attractiveness as a marriage prospect because of that. Admittance to teaching programs has been competitive in the past (just being in the top 1/3 wasn't a guarantee), but I don't know the current situation with college admissions in that field.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Does Korea have normal (teaching) universities like China does? If so, I would assume that they aren’t even going to the same schools as say STEM majors, which makes being at the top third of their class even more amazing (and WTF do the other two thirds do if they were going to school to be a teacher?).
  - wrp 3y ago
    When you are applying to enter a teaching program, you need to have been in the top 1/3 of the class you were just in. As I understand it, that's just a basic requirement and doesn't by itself guarantee admission. I haven't heard anything about attrition rates in teaching programs. Something else to know about Korean universities is that admission to departments is competitive, and once students are accepted by a university, they will change departments before trying to change schools. I knew a girl who wanted to study biochemistry, but didn't make the cut in that department, so she went with an opening in silicon engineering, and now works at Samsung designing chips. I hear stories like that very frequently.